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Ser Scot A Ellison

Law Enforcement and its abuse of power

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Scot - calling a shot where you aim for the leg, ie a smaller target, a trick shot is deliberately misleading and you know it. A trick shot would be using the ricochet to shoot someone, not just aiming for a different part of the body.

Achilles tendon or bust! If I were seriously demanding they aim for the Achilles tendon then Scot's suggestion of it being a trick shot might actually have merit when you're face to face.

I actually didn’t “know that”.  Up until Ran’s post above about European police practices I had always heard anything other that aiming at “center mass” called a “trick shot”.  

I was misinformed and acknowledged my correction.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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2 hours ago, Alarich II said:

Scot, I don't think that aiming for a leg is a "trick shot", and your two legs present quite a bit of surface. The danger of deadly ricochets is always there, but it is mainly technical issue of the ammunition used. 

Thank you.  As I said above every other time I’ve looked into this people I know who shoot, law enforcement and such, have always told me that not aiming for center mass puts others in danger.  Up until Ran posted above that’s all I had heard.  

I, again, stand corrected on this point.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Thank you.  As I said above every other time I’ve looked into this people I know who shoot, law enforcement and such, have always told me that not aiming for center mass puts others in danger.  Up until Ran posted above that’s all I had heard.  

I, again, stand corrected on this point.

Folks from the US are not an unbiased source because they tend to value human lives far less on average. You live in the most warlike western country in the world and killing is often seen as a lesser evil. 

Edited by Luzifer's right hand

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5 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Folks from the US are not an unbiased source because they tend to value human lives far less on average.

The reason warning shots and shooting to disable fell by the wayside in the US appears to have been incidents in which bystanders were killed by ricochets, stray shots, and warning shots that fell back down and managed to hit someone. Better to say that notionally speaking innocent life is valued very highly over notionally criminal life.

5 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

You live in the most warlike western country in the world and killing is often seen as a lesser evil. 

There are a number of South American and Central American countries that are inarguably substantially more violent, so that's not really true either.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

The reason warning shots and shooting to disable fell by the wayside in the US appears to have been incidents in which bystanders were killed by ricochets, stray shots, and warning shots that fell back down and managed to hit someone. Better to say that notionally speaking innocent life is valued very highly over notionally criminal life.

There are a number of South American and Central American countries that are inarguably substantially more violent, so that's not really true either.

Protecting innocent lives? US police? Lol... If that was the case the bullshit car chase culture would not be a thing. 

I would not consider them western countries myself. 

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15 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Folks from the US are not an unbiased source because they tend to value human lives far less on average. You live in the most warlike western country in the world and killing is often seen as a lesser evil. 

I see killing as evil too.

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Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I see killing as evil too.

Back in the day you were pro pointless wars because you believed the lies of you goverment though. Most are pro extrajudicial killings too as long as only brown people are killed. I remember the celebrations when Osama was killed instead of captured. 

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6 hours ago, Ran said:

Yes, de-escalation could and should have worked -- but the moment of that had passed. Instead, the failure to de-escalate belongs with the people in the foster household at the time. As evidence, consider the grown man in gray who was present and apparently part of the household who, rather than trying to de-escalate, actually tried to kick the first girl Bryant knocked down in the back of her head as she got up and get away. He and the other adults who were apparently present for all this should have been the ones trying to de-escalate it. The fact that there have been a number of 911 calls from the house in recent months, including one from Bryant's sister after a fight with her and their foster-mother, tell me that the system did fail Ma'khia Bryant. Not the police system, but rather the foster system.

I've read that the mayor of Columbus has asked for a federal investigation of the police due to the shooting, but I hope he'll also consider making noise about an investigation into the foster system in Ohio, run by the Office of Families and Children (part of the Department of Jobs and Family Services), to explain why Ma'khia Bryant ended up in what seems to have been a troubled and inappropriately-managed foster home, and indeed why such foster homes exist in the system. Are they given too little monetary support? Too little access to mental health services? Etc.

This was one of my first takeaways when initially watching the video. There appeared to be several adults at the scene, with as you said one kicking someone and others watching on appearing to encourage what was happening. How are none of these people to blame? If they had actually acted like adults there may have been no reason to even call the police.

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38 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Back in the day you were pro pointless wars because you believed the lies of you goverment though. Most are pro extrajudicial killings too as long as only brown people are killed. I remember the celebrations when Osama was killed instead of captured. 

Not for quite some time.

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46 minutes ago, Ran said:

The reason warning shots and shooting to disable fell by the wayside in the US appears to have been incidents in which bystanders were killed by ricochets, stray shots, and warning shots that fell back down and managed to hit someone. Better to say that notionally speaking innocent life is valued very highly over notionally criminal life.

With it being ridiculously easy for members of minority groups to be slotted into the "notionally criminal" category without having done anything at all I think this is a fair bit of it. I also maintain that the US also views violence as an acceptable method of resolving issues more widely than most of the countries we're comparing it to in conversations like this. For that matter it also accepts far greater numbers of police and far more police interference/involvement in day to day life for everyone than those same countries.

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Another recent example of police de-escalation. These payouts must start coming from pensions or police budgets.

 

 

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"Foster parents want answers after death of 16-year-old in Columbus"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/columbus-police-shooting-foster-care/2021/04/29/e771d69c-a82a-11eb-bca5-048b2759a489_story.html

 

Quote

 

....The Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation is investigating the case, which has raised questions about police officers' use of deadly force. But the disturbance at the house and Bryant's death also are indicative of deeper problems in the state's foster care system, said foster parents and child welfare advocates, many of whom are now calling for reforms to the overwhelmed and disjointed system caring for abused and vulnerable children. With Bryant's funeral scheduled for Friday, her death has become a call to action.

At a somber news conference Wednesday, Bryant’s birthparents and their attorney called on the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services to investigate Ohio’s foster care system and asked for a Justice Department probe of the Columbus Division of Police, whose officers have fatally shot 38 people since 2015, including five under the age of 18, according to the department.

“We are going to investigate every agency that had a time and an opportunity to prevent Ma’Khia’s death,” attorney Michelle Martin said. “All systems failed her . . . and we have to protect our children.”....

 

 

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https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/nyc-pride-parade-bans-police-gay-officers-disheartened-n1267565

NYC Pride parade bans police; Gay officers 'disheartened'”

I find this something that could only likely satisfy those who are the most anti-cop whilst doing more damage than good. 
Having members of law-enforcement solidarity with a typically maligned group is a good thing.

Showing gay men could be in what are looked at as masculine professions is a good and needed thing.

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24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/nyc-pride-parade-bans-police-gay-officers-disheartened-n1267565

NYC Pride parade bans police; Gay officers 'disheartened'”

I find this something that could only likely satisfy those who are the most anti-cop whilst doing more damage than good. 
Having members of law-enforcement solidarity with a typically maligned group is a good thing.

Showing gay men could be in what are looked at as masculine professions is a good and needed thing.

being gay is not a choice. being a cop is.

and i would like further clarification regarding 'Showing gay men could be in what are looked at as masculine professions is a good and needed thing' 

also it wasn't that long ago nypd were harassing and beating gay people. my sympathies for cops isn't great. 

more places and more events should ban police presence. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, MercenaryChef said:

being gay is not a choice. being a cop is.

 

Yes and not all cops are bad and not everything they do is bad.

And I know this response has often been used to deflect from the systemic issues within regards with American Law enforcement but here I think it’s entirely appropriate.

25 minutes ago, MercenaryChef said:

and i would like further clarification regarding 'Showing gay men could be in what are looked at as masculine professions is a good and needed thing' 

It shows gay men don’t have to be especially feminine. I am not saying being feminine is bad. I’m saying it’s best to showcase being gay is something anyone despite their interests and professions can be and there’s no checklist beyond being gay. I think it’s fair to say many gay men who considered themselves masculine found it a bit harder to reconcile of them being gay with the most common of gay men. 

 

25 minutes ago, MercenaryChef said:

also it wasn't that long ago nypd were harassing and beating gay people. 

Exactly. Gay cops marching along others in solidarity shows what type of conduct cops should be doing. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes and not all cops are bad and not everything they do is bad.

Not all cops are bad but when bad cops do bad things, "good" cops often stay silent which makes them bad cops at least for a while.

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6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes and not all cops are bad and not everything they do is bad.

And I know this response has often been used to deflect from the systemic issues within regards with American Law enforcement but here I think it’s entirely appropriate.

It shows gay men don’t have to be especially feminine. I am not saying being feminine is bad. I’m saying it’s best to showcase being gay is something anyone despite their interests and professions can be and there’s no checklist beyond being gay. I think it’s fair to say many gay men who considered themselves masculine found it a bit harder to reconcile of them being gay with the most common of gay men. 

 

Exactly. Gay cops marching along others in solidarity shows what type of conduct cops should be doing. 

I'll trust the people who organized this made the best decision for them.  

We saw videos last summer of cops marching with BLM protestors and then 20 minutes later kettling them, pepper spraying them, and arresting them.  Trust is earned.

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

It shows gay men don’t have to be especially feminine. I am not saying being feminine is bad. I’m saying it’s best to showcase being gay is something anyone despite their interests and professions can be and there’s no checklist beyond being gay. I think it’s fair to say many gay men who considered themselves masculine found it a bit harder to reconcile of them being gay with the most common of gay men. 

huh, what? 

i cannot even understand what you are on about no matter how many times i read this. 

and seriously,  fuck the police. unless we are talking sting, stewart Copeland and andy summers. those guys are alright in my book.

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1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

I'll trust the people who organized this made the best decision for them.  

We saw videos last summer of cops marching with BLM protestors and then 20 minutes later kettling them, pepper spraying them, and arresting them.  Trust is earned.

Especially considering that history of the Stone Wall riots that were in response to violent police raids of gay bars. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/01/an-amazing-1969-account-of-the-stonewall-uprising/272467/

I've said it before, Police need to reckon with the fact that they are not liked or trusted after years of visibly brutalizing innocent people. That trust has to be earned again after public accountability. 

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Police failures in suburban Massachusetts while (not) investigating the death of a young Black girl who was gay.

https://www.vox.com/2021/5/15/22417396/death-mikayla-miller

Quote
Cannon-Grant said a Massachusetts State Police sergeant initially told Miller’s mother that her daughter had ended her own life. The family also has repeatedly claimed that an officer advised Strothers not to go to the press because doing so would reveal her daughter’s sexual orientation. (The state police directed Vox’s request for comment to the Middlesex County district attorney’s office, which has not yet responded.)

Miller’s family argues the investigation hasn’t been thorough or transparent

The assault is where the Miller family’s complaints about the investigation’s transparency begin. Violence in Boston Inc. released a statement on May 2 attributed to Strothers and alleging that the Hopkinton police logged neither the reported attack on Miller nor the discovery of her body.

“It’s highly unusual if there’s no notation on it. It’s downright suspicious,” said Phillip Atiba Goff, a Yale professor who previously founded the Center for Policing Equity. “It is incredibly distressing to imagine that our lives, and therefore our deaths, don’t rate to record — even when it’s clear indications that there is a homicide [or a suicide].”

...

how does the discovery of that beautiful child, dead with a belt around her neck, not appear suspicious to the district attorney investigating the incident? Why did that assessment not change after the police affidavit describing the scene surfaced? And why weren’t either the assault or the discovery of Miller’s body logged? It is more than a clerical misstep.

“When you’ve got a body like that, that’s a crime scene,” Goff said. “If you’re treating a crime scene of a Black child that way, that’s a level of casualness that nobody in ... a community who’s Black is going to feel okay with.”

 

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