NBA 2021 - 2022 BENched Simmons

[Rhom]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Protecting the status of the old-timers makes it hard to add more modern players, many of whom are probably more deserving.

Have not looked closely at the list.  Did anyone from the Top 50 get bumped?  Or did they just add 25 newer dudes?

[Tywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Have not looked closely at the list.  Did anyone from the Top 50 get bumped?  Or did they just add 25 newer dudes?

The interwebs say all 50 stayed on the list and 26 new players were added due to a tie.

[Wilbur]

4 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

As with any shortlist, if you're saying x player(s) got snubber from y honour, its only right that you also come up with z player(s) to give up their slot. Otherwise, its kind of a cop out. Yeah, all those players deserve to be on 75 greatest players. Oh wait, we're past 75 if we include them all? That's inconvenient.

I would rank him ahead of Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Reggie Miller, and Dennis Rodman.

See the reckoning from David Friedman at the 20 Second Timeout for those guys.

I would also rank English ahead Gary Payton and Jason Kidd, myself.  But unassuming guys who scored tens of thousands of points from the mid-range while playing in the Midwestern Division forty years ago don't get a lot of love.

[Tywin et al.]

So apparently the original 50 at 50 list was not a list of the 50 greatest/most important players ever, but the 10 greatest players at each position. I think that should make it easier to not feel beholden to automatically put them all on future lists. 

[Proudfeet]

4 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I would rank him ahead of Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Reggie Miller, and Dennis Rodman.

See the reckoning from David Friedman at the 20 Second Timeout for those guys.

I would also rank English ahead Gary Payton and Jason Kidd, myself.  But unassuming guys who scored tens of thousands of points from the mid-range while playing in the Midwestern Division forty years ago don't get a lot of love.

I didn't mean to put you on the spot. 

It's just a pet peeve. It comes up every year during All-Stars, and is also noticeably more muted for MVP and All-NBA, where the choice of persons to be replaced is fairly limited. 

[Tywin et al.]

Wolves slay the champs in their house for the first time in eight years. They look like they belong! 

[briantw]

The Cavs on a three game winning streak over the Hawks, Nuggets, and Clippers, just like everyone expected.

[BigFatCoward]

8 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I would rank him ahead of Ray Allen, Carmelo Anthony, Anthony Davis, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Reggie Miller, and Dennis Rodman.

See the reckoning from David Friedman at the 20 Second Timeout for those guys.

I would also rank English ahead Gary Payton and Jason Kidd, myself.  But unassuming guys who scored tens of thousands of points from the mid-range while playing in the Midwestern Division forty years ago don't get a lot of love.

While these lists are obviously personal preference, I don't know how you can look at English v Harden (for example) and think he is more deserving.

On almost every metric other than how annoying, Harden does better. A perennial MVP candidate and 6 time 1st team v 3 time 2nd team, come on, its not even close.

Harden's best scoring season is 8 ppg higher than English. 

[Wilbur]

Here is my case for Alex English, the complete basketball player, as a more desirable player than James Harden for one of the top 75 players of all time.  For me, Harden's performance is that of a flat-track bully, aided by a tailwind of free throws, while English plays the entire game of basketball, even in big games.

I prefer Alex English's consistent performance to Harden's playoff fades.  English only had three playoff series over his entire career where he averaged less than 20 points a game, with the lowest being 18.7 ppg against the transcendent 87 Lakers.  He never had a playoff series like Harden's final Rockets performance, where he went 2-11 from the field but still had 21 points.

How do you get 21 points shooting 2-11?  Manufacturing free throws, which seems to me to be Harden's main weapon over the last years.  Don't get me wrong, Harden seems to me to be a hard worker.  He occasionally does his daily shooting workouts in the offseason at the gym where my girls practice.  In the sessions I have seen, he puts in thousands of shots (threes, free throws), and he doesn't fool around.  I point him out as a model for hard work and dedication to the girls.  But the reversion to the old foul rule this year has seen his free throw attempts plummet - down to three a night from a high of twelve  I think he has over-focused on this rich vein of free points to the detriment of his overall game.

For me, Harden's specialization in shooting threes and getting fouls has formed him into an offensive weapon fit for this purpose alone.  Alex English was a basketball player, and playing as a forward he played the whole game, including on defense.  Even as the primary ball-handler, Harden's assist rate has only significantly exceeded English's in three career years, which shows how English was the complete player, while Harden molded himself into a specialized player.

This season so far, with the old rules back in place, Harden seems to struggle to get off good shots because players can guard him straight up.  He doesn't seem to be quite quick enough or have a good enough handle to get a blue sky look.  On the other hand, English played in the hand-check era, albeit in the softer Western Conference, and he never had any problem getting into good positions or shooting good shots.  Plus look at that exquisite shooting form (sorry about the music), and he scored 1,000+ points a season for ten straight seasons in Denver - without shooting threes!  OK, he took 15 three point shots in the 86-87 season, but Harden could take that many in a game today.

Finally, consider how MVP votes, All-Star votes, etc. worked in the 80s.  While Alex English was scoring 25,000 points in the 80s, he was also playing in Denver.  Rarely televised, in a small market, the Nuggets played in the Western Conference, aka The Lakers and the seven dwarfs.  Combine this with his incredibly calm, even reticent demeanor, and voters were not going to choose him over flashy, big-market, exuberant personality guys in the West like Jack Sikma, Walter Davis, Bernard King, Kiki Vandeweghe, Jamaal Wilkes, Mark Aguirre, James Worthy, Marques Johnson, Tom Chambers, Karl Malone, Xaver McDaniel, etc. unless he was REALLY outstanding.  And yet, there he is, every year, an All-Star, despite only ever attempting six free throws a year at the most.

PS. Look at that shooting form.  Yum.  Versus this, which is yuck.

[Ramsay B.]

Nice comeback by the Bulls, or Knicks choke-job really. Hated the play drawn up at the end though. I think Donovan was expecting Barrett to bite on the fake handoff pass to LaVine then double him. But unfortunately he didn’t. Just let Zach go to work next time. 

[briantw]

I didn't think I'd ever see another generational player on the Cavs, but goddamn Evan Mobley is making me a believer.  This kid is gonna be a problem. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

After a general atrocious 0-4 start by the Pistons, tonight against the Magic we are allegedly getting to see the debut of our number one pick Cade Cunningham.

He's been out since a preseason ankle injury. Uber hopes for this young man to be 100% healed and facilitating our rebuild.

Can't wait for tipoff!

[Maithanet]

So the Wizards are...decent?  They're 5-1 and have won a game without their best player (Beal) and another without the guy who's probably #2 (Dinwiddie).  I'm realistic about this - they're not going to be real contenders or anything, but they look like a team that will be in the playoffs.  It's hard to really celebrate the moves Washington as made when their ceiling is still so low, but it is nice to see a team that is at least trying to win and with NBA quality players.  IF the young guys continue to put it together then maybe the thought of getting another all-star to team with Beal isn't out of the question. 

Is that the faintest ray of hope?  That's odd. 

[Argonath Diver]

It certainly appears they are the early winners of the Westbrook trade. I was skeptical they'd be more than a 500 team but Harrell and Kuzma are playing way better than I anticipated. Like my Bulls, it sure does feel good to see a nice winning record early on.

The East could be really interesting as the season plays out. There are, by my count, twelve fanbases that were fairly confident their team would be a top 6 team this season for one reason or another. A bunch of people are going to be disappointed, as I expect quite a logjam between spots 3 and 11 or so.

[Argonath Diver]

Hell of a damn game tonight between the Bulls and Celts. The Bulls come out 5-5 from 3pt, but lost the lead, then went like 27-9. Their atrocious defense led to the Celts punching back with a ridiculous run the last 10 minutes of the 2nd and into the 3rd. Bulls down 18 I think? Then, jesus, I guess LaVine did some great blow or something, because he snapped into a different player and somehow Brown and Tatum completely faded. Bulls won by 14. 

I thought the win against Utah was their biggest win in years, and then they pull off this staggering comeback after looking awful. I don't think they're true contenders, but hot damn do I root for one of the most fun teams in the league, and that hasn't happened since Rose.

[Ramsay B.]

Bulls outscore C’s 39-11 in the 4th quarter! This team is so fun to watch thus far. 

I don’t know if this is a widely known thing but Yahoo Sports shows all the games. All you have to do is click on the box score during them and it’s on.

[Wilbur]

21 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

Bulls outscore C’s 39-11 in the 4th quarter! This team is so fun to watch thus far. 

I don’t know if this is a widely known thing but Yahoo Sports shows all the games. All you have to do is click on the box score during them and it’s on.

You are so right - the Bulls are really enjoyable to watch.

DeMar DeRozan doesn't physically resemble Jordan, but his shot selection replicates the late-80s/early-90s MJ shot charts.

And Zach Levine even got a video treatment from Ben:

 

[briantw]

The Cavs are a .500 team right now and have only played two home games.

I...did not see that coming.  I would have been less surprised if they were 0-8 at this point.  Mobley is the truth.  He's like the glue that makes the Cavs' mess of a roster somehow work.

[Tywin et al.]

48 minutes ago, briantw said:

The Cavs are a .500 team right now and have only played two home games.

I...did not see that coming.  I would have been less surprised if they were 0-8 at this point.  Mobley is the truth.  He's like the glue that makes the Cavs' mess of a roster somehow work.

The early results so far are really hard to comprehend. I wouldn't read much into any of them other than the Heat are for real. 

[Tywin et al.]

Listening to the Mayor-elect of NYC do a few interviews, perhaps Kyrie is going to win out here.