LOTR series: a view of the Two Trees

[Rhom]

It always amazes me that people who are presumably much smarter than I am (and definitely make more money than me) can make decisions that seemingly make no sense whatsoever.

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

I find it a bit strange how Amazon shelled out so much money for material that is basically the Akallabeth, a few drafts, a timeline and some notes. And also decided they wanted almost 50 hours of TV from it. 

And then assigned two randos from the slush pile to be in charge of it, rather than the massively more talented people they found to write a single episode apiece.

The stories I've heard from inside the business on this project are genuinely baffling and at times hilarious. Unfortunately I don't know how accurate they are, other than the fact that most of Hollywood regarded the project with complete bemusement when it was first sent out to tender and were utterly shocked that Amazon even thought of buying into it.

It might turn out to be fine - some of the writers are fantastic - but the way it's been done is almost the 101 on how you don't do a project of this scale and scope.

[Ran]

I'm thoroughly convinced my "Thorongil leading the Middle-Earth equivalent of the A-Team in Gondor" idea would be better than whatever Amazon is cooking up

[Ser Drewy]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

And then assigned two randos from the slush pile to be in charge of it, rather than the massively more talented people they found to write a single episode apiece.

The stories I've heard from inside the business on this project are genuinely baffling and at times hilarious. Unfortunately I don't know how accurate they are, other than the fact that most of Hollywood regarded the project with complete bemusement when it was first sent out to tender and were utterly shocked that Amazon even thought of buying into it.

It might turn out to be fine - some of the writers are fantastic - but the way it's been done is almost the 101 on how you don't do a project of this scale and scope.

The leaks make me wonder if there was some truth to the "Tom Shippey left due to actively disliking the direction of the show" speculations. 

But it's very strange to have a supposedly flag-shop project and we've only got one image from it, no title, and a bunch of increasingly bizarre leaks. I genuinely wonder why Payne and McKay got the project, what made Amazon pick them of all people especially for something this huge?

It's bizarre to me to think that we've been waiting multiple years for this project and there's barely anything official on it. 

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

I get the distinct impression that Amazon are sweating shit-buckets over LotR, and in a way the massive success of WoT has put even more pressure on them: fail to match or even massively exceed WoT's level of success, given the show has a minimum of 3x the budget and resources (and possibly as much as 6x) and a much greater level of brand awareness and heads will absolutely roll behind the scenes.

I find it mind-boggling that we are eight months from transmission and we don't even know what the show will be called.

Assuming this happens, does Amazon also redistribute it's budget? 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

But it's very strange to have a supposedly flag-shop project and we've only got one image from it, no title, and a bunch of increasingly bizarre leaks. I genuinely wonder why Payne and McKay got the project, what made Amazon pick them of all people especially for something this huge?

It's bizarre to me to think that we've been waiting multiple years for this project and there's barely anything official on it. 

In some respects, it's the same as the WoT direction of travel: 9 months before release we didn't have much either, though we did have a little more. They seem to be deliberately obfuscating much more about this show though, including the very title and setting (there's some saying there's a mass of foilers about Isildur and it's really about Celebrimbor as everyone first thought). The point of that seems weird though as 99% of potential viewers won't care.

As for why Payne and McKay got the project, there weren't many others who wanted it. Apparently Amazon tried to recruit some big names and people actively avoided it, fearing it was a poisoned chalice. Though I believe J. Michael Straczynski said he was interested and let Amazon know, but I suspect he was on the other side of the line that Amazon knew they wouldn't be able to bully him into doing anything too outrageous, and any other really experienced showrunners (though you're never going to beat JMS's experience in the business and being a massive Tolkien fan) were wise enough to stay out of it.

Quote

Assuming this happens, does Amazon also redistribute it's budget? 

It should be possible to make future LotR seasons for way, way less than the money they've spent so far, and WoT will need a budget hike at some point, so yes, though not in a "your show isn't doing the numbers we hoped, we'll take the money away and directly give it to these guys who are doing better value for money."

[Clueless Northman]

1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

The leaks make me wonder if there was some truth to the "Tom Shippey left due to actively disliking the direction of the show" speculations.  

Sounds very realistic, unless:

30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

(there's some saying there's a mass of foilers about Isildur and it's really about Celebrimbor as everyone first thought). The point of that seems weird though as 99% of potential viewers won't care.

In which case they've gone the Jackson way, but went totally over the top with fake spoilers. For the record, I've always suspected that the most outrageous LOTR leaks were deliberate and PJ actually wanted to lower die-hard fans' expectations so that, for instance, "Elves fighting silly at Helm's Deep" wouldn't be massively bashed by fans at release, but instead they would go "Phew at least Arwen isn't there doing ninja stuff".

[Werthead]

26 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Sounds very realistic, unless:

In which case they've gone the Jackson way, but went totally over the top with fake spoilers. For the record, I've always suspected that the most outrageous LOTR leaks were deliberate and PJ actually wanted to lower die-hard fans' expectations so that, for instance, "Elves fighting silly at Helm's Deep" wouldn't be massively bashed by fans at release, but instead they would go "Phew at least Arwen isn't there doing ninja stuff".

They did film all the Arwen at Helm's Deep stuff and needed to reshoot a ton of scenes without her (and carefully edit others to eliminate her), so if a deliberate foiler, it was a very expensive one.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

They did film all the Arwen at Helm's Deep stuff and needed to reshoot a ton of scenes without her (and carefully edit others to eliminate her), so if a deliberate foiler, it was a very expensive one.

Yep, I don't think that was foiler. Here's proof (whether that's Tyler or a stunt double dressed as Arwen, hard to say, but the point remains)...

I've heard two claims about it, re: writing: IMDB says that allegedly it was a thing for the Miramax version of the script and they cut it before filming (but that makes no sense, since see above), or that they cut it when it leaked to fans and saw generally negative reaction to the idea. Color me dubious about that one.

What I think is more credible is that it was claimed that Tyler was terrified of filming stunt fighting on horseback, and even being around others performing fighting scenes on horseback around her, and that they realized that the footage they got was simply not going to work. Bolstering that is the fact that Tyler and horse handlers on the show admitted that she was afraid of the horses and did not like being on them.

[DMC]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Bolstering that is the fact that Tyler and horse handlers on the show admitted that she was afraid of the horses and did not like being on them.

*Must resist "they remind her of her father" joke*

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Yep, I don't think that was foiler. Here's proof (whether that's Tyler or a stunt double dressed as Arwen, hard to say, but the point remains)...

I've heard two claims about it, re: writing: IMDB says that allegedly it was a thing for the Miramax version of the script and they cut it before filming (but that makes no sense, since see above), or that they cut it when it leaked to fans and saw generally negative reaction to the idea. Color me dubious about that one.

What I think is more credible is that it was claimed that Tyler was terrified of filming stunt fighting on horseback, and even being around others performing fighting scenes on horseback around her, and that they realized that the footage they got was simply not going to work. Bolstering that is the fact that Tyler and horse handlers on the show admitted that she was afraid of the horses and did not like being on them.

Wow. So another reason why ride to the ford scene should have been done with Glorfindel. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Yep, I don't think that was foiler. Here's proof (whether that's Tyler or a stunt double dressed as Arwen, hard to say, but the point remains)...

I've heard two claims about it, re: writing: IMDB says that allegedly it was a thing for the Miramax version of the script and they cut it before filming (but that makes no sense, since see above), or that they cut it when it leaked to fans and saw generally negative reaction to the idea. Color me dubious about that one.

What I think is more credible is that it was claimed that Tyler was terrified of filming stunt fighting on horseback, and even being around others performing fighting scenes on horseback around her, and that they realized that the footage they got was simply not going to work. Bolstering that is the fact that Tyler and horse handlers on the show admitted that she was afraid of the horses and did not like being on them.

There's footage of Arwen at Helm's Deep in behind the scenes footage (I think on the RotK DVD) where it's more obviously Tyler.

 

[The hairy bear]

And... we have a title: The Rings of Power!!

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Well… that tells us… very little.

[Corvinus85]

It tells that they must be starting with the forging of the rings.

[Krishtotter]

 

 

Yup, the supporting press release from Amazon confirms that The Rings of Power will indeed not just be set during the late Second Age but aims to cover all of the main events from the forging to the Last Alliance: 

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-series-official-title-rings-of-power/

 

"This is a title that we imagine could live on the spine of a book next to J.R.R. Tolkien’s other classics,” showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay said in a statement. “The Rings of Power unites all the major stories of Middle-earth’s Second Age: the forging of the rings, the rise of the Dark Lord Sauron, the epic tale of Númenor, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. Until now, audiences have only seen on-screen the story of the One Ring – but before there was one, there were many… and we’re excited to share the epic story of them all.”

 

[SpaceChampion]

I wonder if they will jump back and forth between timelines like on season one of the Witcher.  Contrary to I guess most people, I loved that.  It's a good way to see themes carried across stories centuries a part.  Doing the stories sequentially like some sort of anthology show would be pedestrian.

 

[Krishtotter]

8 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I wonder if they will jump back and forth between timelines like on season one of the Witcher.  Contrary to I guess most people, I loved that.  It's a good way to see themes carried across stories centuries a part.  Doing the stories sequentially like some sort of anthology show would be pedestrian.

 

Either that or there might be some time-compression/merging of certain storylines.

I note that the official press release states: 

The television series’ complete title was unveiled today, and the significance behind the subtitle will not be lost on J.R.R. Tolkien fans, foreshadowing an epic story that welds the major events of Tolkien’s Second Age together: the forging of the iconic rings.

The multi-season drama – The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power – will premiere exclusively on Prime Video in more than 240 countries around the world in multiple languages on Friday, September 2, with new episodes available weekly.....

Just as so many elements of the show itself were hand-crafted, Prime Video chose to physically forge the title in a blacksmith foundry, pouring fiery molten metal into hand-carved wooden ravines shaped to the letterforms. The process was captured in slow motion for a live-action video, which features voice-over narration of lines from Tolkien’s famous “Ring Verse,” describing the intended recipients of the 20 Rings of Power. The bespoke title treatment appears crafted in a silvery metal, with lines of Elvish script inscribed along the crest of each letterform.

 

[SpaceChampion]

I just find it hard to believe the Tolkien Estate after guarding their patriach's legacy so fastidiously for so long would allow such a complete butchering of the stories by compressing the timeline.

[Maltaran]

6 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

I just find it hard to believe the Tolkien Estate after guarding their patriach's legacy so fastidiously for so long would allow such a complete butchering of the stories by compressing the timeline.

It is notable that this only happened after Christopher Tolkien retired