US Politics: Rural Southernification… (thanks Zorral)

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Am I not correct?

You are not correct.

3 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

 I reply to people who reply to me... selectively and as long as it suits me. And no, I'm not trolling either. Want me silent? Stop replying.

I didn’t accuse you of being a troll nor demand you be silent.

I merely noted an inconsistency.

3 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

I never told you to simply accept everything conservatives do.

How is this a relevant response to what your quoting?

Which was merely me professing to not not putting much respect to the tone of political opposition on certain matters. 

3 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I'm not going to bother with this, so you can stop bringing it up.

You shouldn’t.

it was merely to highlight the absurdity in pretending anti-democratic sentiments from American conservatives and liberals are comparable.

Both sides are not equally.

At least in terms of mainstream politics in America.

3 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

But more seriously, some of them might actually be affected, if one bothers to try. Not every Trump voter is impossible to reach.

Sure. This emotional approach can work on individual level.

But trying to convince many of them to not want to do certain bad things may not be effective as just essening their ability to do said bad things.

You know like overthrow democracy. Ending the filibuster and adding a couple states would force the gop to moderate in order to stay competitive. Because currently their powers rests appealing a hardline angry minority that detests democratic norms.

Making appeals to patriotism, unity, and shared humanity has on a systematic level has failed.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

How much would conservatives freak out if all pro-abortion women in Texas just went to a clinic and got their tubes tied?  Escalation to anti-natalism if they don't scrap the abortion ban.

Why the actual fuck would this be a reasonable suggestion? 

[Zorral]

Negotiate, speak, with me, with your sympathy and compassion, with respect and understanding, about why I should be sympathetic, respectful and understanding to those who are determined to deny human rights to everybody who isn't a crazy white man, o thee who nomenclatures as a tsar, czar, kingywingy etc. of authoritarianism. 

 

[Martell Spy]

A shocking turn of events that no one predicted, least of all Susan Collins.

Susan Collins calls Texas abortion law ‘extreme’ under more scrutiny for Kavanaugh vote

https://bangordailynews.com/2021/09/02/politics/susan-collins-calls-texas-abortion-law-extreme-under-more-scrutiny-for-kavanaugh-vote/

Quote

 

U.S. Sen. Susan Collins called a new Texas law severely restricting abortion “extreme” and criticized the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision to leave it in place amid outcry from abortion-rights activists who decried the senator’s 2018 vote to confirm a conservative justice.

In a 5-4 ruling late Wednesday night, the high court declined to block the implementation of a Texas law that bans abortions after six weeks of pregnancy, even in cases of rape or incest, and allows for civil lawsuits against anyone who helps facilitate an abortion after that point.

It is likely not the final word on the Texas law, but the ruling has thrust Collins, a rare pro-abortion rights Republican, back into the center of a national conversation. She defended her vote for Justice Brett Kavanaugh by arguing that he would respect precedent and not roll back Roe v. Wade, the 1973 landmark decision enshrining abortion rights.

 

 

[Arakan]

All I can say is, looking at it from the outside, that the socio-political conflict in the US is eerily similar to what we have seen in the 1920s all over Europe. Of course not the same as nothing is ever the same but the patterns are similar enough. The US is now in the 1923-29 phase, relative economic stability. But the fronts are clear, the issues and talking points strikingly similar as those 100 years ago. For the extreme right it’s always a mixture of back to a „glorious“ past (MAGA), god, a „pure“ country, traditional values (the man as loving patriarch for his family), and against any „cancerous“ influence which destroys the „purity“ of the country (LGBT, leftists, ethnic minorities). The danger of the „jüdischer Weltbolschewismus“ simply morphed into the danger of globalist „cultural marxism“ which endanger „true American values“. The degenerates of society are basically the same 100 years later (LGBT, feminists). 

Funnily enough you also have the cynic traditional conservative who thinks they can use the more radical elements for their own benefit (Brüning, von Papen, Schleicher morphed into the Mitch McConnells). Well, they should prepare for a rude awakening.

All it now just needs is a major economic crisis which will quite probably happen within the next 2-3 years (maybe due to the rising crypto-currency mania, maybe due to rising tensions with China, real estate market is always a good bet). 

The frustrating thing is that in general humans very hardly learn from past mistakes. First lesson is: fight fanatics with fire, do not reason with them, do not „use“ them, do not try to find common ground. Expose them, humiliate them. They hate you and the status quo society anyway, so there’s no reason to be gentle or nice.

And most importantly, like absolutely most importantly, adopt a worst case scenario mindset. Forget all about this „it can’t happen here“, „it can’t happen now“ because of xyz technicalities. Thank god Trump and his inner circle were a bunch of incompetent con-artists and morons. The next „great leader“ might be much more ruthless and competent and less narcissistic idiot.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You are not correct.

In the case I'm actually mistaken... then I apologize to those whom I may have accused unfairly. Those who want anything to do with such apologies, that is. But frankly, I think my mileage is a bit different.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I merely noted an inconsistency.

I guess that may seem inconsistent. Thing is... I regard you guys much as you may regard conservatives. Entrenched partisan bubble who may not be interested in anything I have to say. Also, as I said in that post, any further engagement was not guaranteed, so I might as well say that there. I think honest assessment, even if insulting, may actually do some good. Sometimes.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

How is this a relevant response to what your quoting?

Which was merely me professing to not not putting much respect to the tone of political opposition on certain matters. 

You were listing things you don't like about the right, and that's what I replied to.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Sure. This emotional approach can work on individual level.

But trying to convince many of them to not want to do certain bad things may not be effective as just essening their ability to do said bad things.

You know like overthrow democracy. Ending the filibuster and adding a couple states would force the gop to moderate in order to stay competitive. Because currently their powers rests appealing a hardline angry minority that detests democratic norms.

Making appeals to patriotism, unity, and shared humanity has on a systematic level has failed.

Dude, I don't think Democrats should cease pursuing progressive policies. Global warming, for one, makes that a counterproductive proposition. I just think that the way they go about it may be less than optimal. My original point was about dialogue... and if you rule that completely out, then of course you only have enemies. Strengthening your opponent and limiting your own potential pool of support. And of course, your opponents can undo everything you have achieved, if they get enough power.

5 hours ago, Zorral said:

Negotiate, speak, with me, with your sympathy and compassion, with respect and understanding, about why I should be sympathetic, respectful and understanding to those who are determined to deny human rights to everybody who isn't a crazy white man, o thee who nomenclatures as a tsar, czar, kingywingy etc. of authoritarianism.

Fine, I'll talk to you. I think you should try to avoid pushing them off even further, and to make them even worse. That may be counterproductive to your own interests.

From what I have seen of you, you come across as a rather unreasonable person. That's not an insult: it's my perception. Whether you want to think on that is your own choice... but if I didn't say it plain, you wouldn't have even that reason to consider it.

Besides that, I don't expect you to discuss in good faith. That's why I filter you out.

[Spockydog]

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

https://www.propublica.org/article/heeding-steve-bannons-call-election-deniers-organize-to-seize-control-of-the-gop-and-reshape-americas-elections

Describes a groundswell of stop-the-steal types getting themselves into positions of local authority (mostly election related) for the next elections, mostly in swing and red states.

[Mindwalker]

ProPublica contacted GOP leaders in 65 key counties, and 41 reported an unusual increase in signups since Bannon’s campaign began. At least 8,500 new Republican precinct officers (or equivalent lowest-level officials) joined those county parties. We also looked at equivalent Democratic posts and found no similar surge.

“I’ve never seen anything like this, people are coming out of the woodwork,” said J.C. Martin, the GOP chairman in Polk County, Florida, who has added 50 new committee members since January. Martin had wanted congressional Republicans to overturn the election on Jan. 6, and he welcomed this wave of like-minded newcomers. “The most recent time we saw this type of thing was the tea party, and this is way beyond it.”

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Fine, I'll talk to you. I think you should try to avoid pushing them off even further, and to make them even worse. That may be counterproductive to your own interests.

From what I have seen of you, you come across as a rather unreasonable person. That's not an insult: it's my perception. Whether you want to think on that is your own choice... but if I didn't say it plain, you wouldn't have even that reason to consider it.

Besides that, I don't expect you to discuss in good faith. That's why I filter you out.

I feel like you aren’t hearing the criticism of your stated goal.  I, and others like me, have attempted to appeal to the heart to note to these self proclaimed “Christian Fundamentalists” that Christs message is one of peace and love for your fellow man not of xenophobic hatred… could you please provide an example where large portions of the Trumpanista following have been receptive to our appeals “to their hearts”?

 

[HoodedCrow]

Trump appealed to the frustrated sadism in his followers. I guess it’s “gut”?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Trump appealed to the frustrated sadism in his followers. I guess it’s “gut”?

The fact that Trump could and does do this is incredibly disturbing.  In all sincerity how is this a “fixable” problem?  Those delighting in their sadism get angry, lash out, or double down on their sadism when it is pointed out to them.  

The best way to get someone to see how big an asshole they’ve become is to, somehow, get them to see themselves in others eyes.  How do we do that when all of us are living in echo chambers resistant to genuine self-reflection?

[Fragile Bird]

The US jobs report was expected to be at 720,000 new jobs, but instead only 235,000 new jobs were announced.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I feel like you aren’t hearing the criticism of your stated goal.  I, and others like me, have attempted to appeal to the heart to note to these self proclaimed “Christian Fundamentalists” that Christs message is one of peace and love for your fellow man not of xenophobic hatred… could you please provide an example where large portions of the Trumpanista following have been receptive to our appeals “to their hearts”?

I cannot give you such an example, and to quote my first reply from the other thread...

Quote

Oh, and because people do have so different values and preferences, they aren't going to buy everything you might want to sell them, even if manage to sell something with successful common-identity approach. But with common-identity politics, you could, perhaps, counteract the polarization a bit, unite just a little more people around the common values. What little the people may have, anyway. You might have few less enemies, even if it were to turn out that most of the right is not inclined to listen. Would that be worth, well, anything?

So that's that.

The book I spoke of mentioned Pauli Murray and Martin Luther King Jr. as people who used this approach (though not only this approach). I would expect U.S. citizens be more familiar with their accomplishments than I am. You can decide for yourself whether anything of their approach is applicable to U.S. today.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

35 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

I cannot give you such an example, and to quote my first reply from the other thread...

So that's that.

The book I spoke of mentioned Pauli Murray and Martin Luther King Jr. as people who used this approach (though not only this approach). I would expect U.S. citizens be more familiar with their accomplishments than I am. You can decide for yourself whether anything of their approach is applicable to U.S. today.

TsarGrey,

I appreciate what you are suggesting.  I really do.  I simply fear we are at a point where people don’t hear kindness when offered.  That cynicism has become so pervasive even sincere efforts to “touch hearts” is perceived as attempts to control.  Particularly by people who have embraced Xenophobia.  

I will not stop reaching out with kindness but I cannot say that I’m not angry.  I have people I love dearly dancing in the Trumpanista camp.  I try to reach them and they call me deluded for not wanting to drink the kool aid they love.

We’re all in a difficult place.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

32 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

The US jobs report was expected to be at 720,000 new jobs, but instead only 235,000 new jobs were announced.

Reminds me of a party in college when some guy asked me what I was majoring in. After I told him psych and poli sci he chuckled and said those weren’t real scientific fields. So I asked him what his major was and he said economics. I laughed in his face and walked away.

[Week]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

https://www.propublica.org/article/heeding-steve-bannons-call-election-deniers-organize-to-seize-control-of-the-gop-and-reshape-americas-elections

Describes a groundswell of stop-the-steal types getting themselves into positions of local authority (mostly election related) for the next elections, mostly in swing and red states.

We're really going to have to talk, listen, and really engage with conservatives here. If we don't then they'll get angry, start screaming at community meetings, doxxing officials, and threatening thuggery and violence.

Oh wait, that's already happening -- so, how exactly does this thoughtful, respectful, measured engagement work with that insanity (which is explicitly supported by the GOP leadership and propaganda arm (Fox News and others)).

Some humor in a dark time:

 

 

[Mindwalker]

The notion that "we" are all as much in a bubble as trumpists is a myth.

[Altherion]

Looks like the reconciliation bill is being paused:

Quote

 

Sen. Joe Manchin, the most pivotal Democratic swing vote in the Senate, threw a major wrench in his party's carefully crafted plans to pass a massive $3.5 trillion bill by month's end, demanding they take a "strategic pause" before considering a sweeping bill to implement much of President Joe Biden's agenda.
...
"Instead of rushing to spend trillions on new government programs and additional stimulus funding, Congress should hit a strategic pause on the budget-reconciliation legislation," he wrote in the op-ed. "A pause is warranted because it will provide more clarity on the trajectory of the pandemic, and it will allow us to determine whether inflation is transitory or not."

He added: "While some have suggested this reconciliation legislation must be passed now, I believe that making budgetary decisions under artificial political deadlines never leads to good policy or sound decisions. I have always said if I can't explain it, I can't vote for it, and I can't explain why my Democratic colleagues are rushing to spend $3.5 trillion."

Manchin says he cannot agree to the $3.5 trillion plan "or anywhere near that level of additional spending" without fully assessing the effects on the economy.

 

 

[Durckad]

Why the fuck is it always the job of liberals and "the left" to moderate themselves in an effort to not offend the delicate sensibilities of conservatives? Like suddenly it's our fault that the hooting morons of conservatism are now a bunch of anti-vax cultists that have tied all of their personality to a failed, silver spoon, fascist real estate tycoon?

Fuck that.

What happened to the vaunted conservative "personal responsibility?" At some point these shit-heads' churlish behavior ceases to be our problem, our responsibility. At some point they need to make a step out of their caves of fear and ignorance themselves. No amount of coddling and moderated tones from "the left" is going to force them out of their little safe spaces of darkness and fear and inchoate anger. They are happy there, their views and beliefs are validated there. They are RIGHT and correct and rational there. Why would they leave?

How often have conservatives offered to step across the aisle, to make amends after decades of demonizing anyone to the left of Ronnie Raygun as a communist who hates America? The very, very few that have are almost immediately excommunicated from conservative media as traitors, RINOs, or not real conservatives. When are THEY going to moderate their tone to stop alienating liberals and th

I guess my rambling point here is that liberals have spent the last 5 years excoriating themselves about how their snobbish, elitist, and arrogant attitudes caused Donald Trump's election in 2016. Since then, it has been their responsibility to coddle and mollify the conservatives no matter how noxious they are acting. But at some point, they need to stop beating themselves up for some perceived slight of buying an expensive coffee, for saying Happy Holidays, or for not treating all Muslims as secret terrorists.

And let's be honest here, liberals did not cause Qanon by being dicks. Liberals did not cause the Jan 6th insurrection. Conservatives with their insular, childish beliefs did and it's important they acknowledge and own that, even if it alienates some and pushes them further into their comfy little cave.

Maybe it's short-sighted, but we need to stop trying to understand and empathize with these people. Maybe some can be reached, maybe some will come out of their caves with a little coercion, but if they believe in Qanon or if they support the Jan 6th insurrection, they're fucking gone and lost in the dark. The only option is to make them irrelevant electorally. 

TLDR rant over