The Expanse #6: better to go down swinging than rolling over

[Spockydog]

What's up with the opening scene? Why even go there if they're not continuing the story?

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Mars was in the midst of decommissioning a portion of its fleet. They were bleeding talent with people migrating to the Ring worlds. Then Duarte's group cannibalizes part of their war materiel to give to Marco and they make off with another part of the fleet. And finally their parliament gets blown up, though unlike the book they didn't spend time on that issue. So yep, Mars is no longer capable of fielding a significant fleet. There is a line in the show where Avasarala's aid mentions that Mars is nearly ready to field a new Donnager-class ship. I've no idea who long something like that takes to build.

Well this is subjective, but I disagree. Keon Alexander has done a good job displaying Marco's charisma. His dialogue scenes in season 4 alone establish how he can sway people. Of course, we also saw that the more intelligent people tend to see through his bullshit. On that note, let me remind you who was POTUS not so long ago who still enjoys a lot of support. I believe your own country's president also falls somewhere on those lines. I find Marco really believable. 

That being said, episode 1 of this season shows how Marco's charisma overshadows his actual capabilities. 

Well, you know, as awful as Trump or Bolsonaro are, they didn't kill more people than Hitler and Stalin combined and virtually destroyed the Earth. Pretty sure they wouldn't have that much fanatical support.  The actor isn't bad, mind you, just not really up to the task.

[Ran]

33 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

What's up with the opening scene? Why even go there if they're not continuing the story?

 

Alcorn appears to believe there's the possibility down the road of resuming the series to wrap up the story, perhaps with some other network than Amazon. Even if they're wrong, reminding people there's more story to be told is a nice plug for the books if nothing else.

[Spockydog]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Alcorn appears to believe there's the possibility down the road of resuming the series to wrap up the story, perhaps with some other network than Amazon. Even if they're wrong, reminding people there's more story to be told is a nice plug for the books if nothing else.

I'm now convinced there is going to be some kind of announcement after the show finishes airing. Which is probably nothing more than wishful thinking. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Spockydog

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Alcorn appears to believe there's the possibility down the road of resuming the series to wrap up the story, perhaps with some other network than Amazon. Even if they're wrong, reminding people there's more story to be told is a nice plug for the books if nothing else.

I could also see Amazon wrapping the show up as a series of movies.  The books aren’t so long that they couldn’t be finished as a series of two and a half hour films.

[Corvinus85]

FYI this season has mini-episodes in the X-Ray bonus content. Worth a watch, the first one directly expands on Drummer's plotline.

[Ran]

5 hours ago, briantw said:

I could also see Amazon wrapping the show up as a series of movies.  The books aren’t so long that they couldn’t be finished as a series of two and a half hour films.

My guess is Amazon is done with the show, and Alcorn hopes to convince some third party to take over producing the series down the road, much as Amazon took over from Netflix. There may be some clauses tying the 6 seasons to Amazon's platform exclusively for X amount of time, and after that point Alcorn can shop it elsewhere.

It does risk the heavy-lifting of trying to get all the regular actors back in to make it happen, but it's not impossible.

@Corvinus85

Spoiler

I always wondered about Drummer's feelings for Naomi... or maybe Naomi's for Drummer. I couldn't make out if Naomi and Drummer had gotten romantically involved or not from season 3, but this piece makes me think that Naomi loved Drummer platonically, while it seems to me Drummer was holding a torch for Naomi, so to speak, so an unrequited attraction.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Ran

[sifth]

Giving Drummer, Pa's story for season 5 and most likely season 6 of the show is probably the biggest issue I have with the story of the tv show. Not a whole lot of time passes from season 4 to season 5, yet out of nowhere Drummer suddenly has this massive family and is basically a pirate queen. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For Pa there's very little issue, since we last see her at the end of the third novel and she doesn't return until the sixth one, so a lot more time has passed since we last saw her and we knew very little about her even in the third book. 

Heck they'll probably have rewrite Drummer completely if they ever adapt the 7th novel, since she's basically a completely different person in that novel, compared to the one on the tv show.

Edited December 11, 2021 by sifth

[Kalbear]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

Also a confusing bit. They mention they haven't seen stealth composite-painted asteroids in months, so that's another reason that makes it seem odd the Earth fleet is still tied up in orbital defense.

Because as we saw, the defenses are barely able to cope with dealing with the nonstealth rocks that have been thrown. I personally think that's a smidgen unrealistic but they at least establish that while they're doing okay now (and even that okay is only letting small meteors in and 500 dead), that wasn't the case for the last 6 months.

13 hours ago, Ran said:

Speaking of stealth composites... with Laconia established they've lost their in to getting a hold of Martian surplus, and Mars must have cracked down on anyone who thought they could fill a gap. Laconia is either not yet setup to make military surplus available  beyond simpler products (there was a mention Medina Station needing titanium but that the "Laconian pieces" were harder to install than expected, suggesting they're armoring up the station in titanium plating or titanium reinforcements) or they're able to produce surplus but are refusing to sell it to Marco now that they have gotten what they want.

Laconia is not interested in arming the free navy or having them be the main power, and definitely not with their new weapons they can develop.

13 hours ago, Ran said:

Fair point on Ceres -- it would take planet-buster type weapons. But we know Mars had those mobile missile platforms that they use to strike Earth. I'd guess Ceres would be having a pretty bad day if a MIRV with a score of nuclear warheads inside of it came at them. (Part of why I was focused on Ceres is that I'm going to assume spies on Ceres would lead everyone know that Marco was there. Realistically any sort of long-range shot would be too late, unless the railguns accelerate things to some appreciable fraction of C. But if they do... then a bunch of tungsten sabots smashing into Ceres could cause crippling damage and might by sheer luck manage to get Marco. Season 3's drama with the mobile platforms kind of made it seem like they do go very, very fast, but this may be handwaving for the purpose of making television.)

You could in theory shoot a bunch of tungsten at Ceres or other places. The problem is that it would take years to get there. If its not directly under thrust its gonna be a long time, unless you can launch from somewhere close - and right now they can't. 

What about mirvs? The problem is that seeing things under thrust makes something super visible, especially when you're looking for it. Having the ability to shoot at something for weeks makes mirvs not super awesome as an interplanetary weapon. They take less time, but are very vulnerable. You can make them somewhat evasive, but only somewhat. That they can do 20g thrust only helps a little bit.

And yeah, railguns are fast, but they're still not that fast and they largely rely on matching inertial frames. Shooting random railguns at things is just too slow. 

[Ran]

@Kalsandra

That's why I wondered whether the railguns fired things at significant percentages of C or not. Ceres is 14 light minutes from Earth, and a little under 8 from Mars (assuming Mars has similar railgun defenses). 

I'm thinking the TV show's third season has messed with my brain on these things, given how they depicted the use of the railguns against the Martian platforms and how quickly everything went. All wildly compressed down for effect. Is this plot from the books or something that TV show made? Wonder how the books handled it, if that was the origin of that part of the story.... probably place the stealthed platforms much, much, much closer to Earth than the show depicted.

(Although, then again, the Belters need not be the only one who think of launching things months ahead of when they'll strike. Wonder how long it would take railgun slugs to go from Earth orbit to Ceres... *Googles* ... Probably north of 7 months, at 12.5 km/s. Loooong time to avenge the destruction of Earth and try to damage the Free Navy, if Avasarala would even agree to it.)

[mnedel]

As far as I remember (long time since I read those books), but the railgun stuff and Mars nukes was a show only plot. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by mnedel

[Corvinus85]

17 hours ago, sifth said:

Giving Drummer, Pa's story for season 5 and most likely season 6 of the show is probably the biggest issue I have with the story of the tv show. Not a whole lot of time passes from season 4 to season 5, yet out of nowhere Drummer suddenly has this massive family and is basically a pirate queen. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For Pa there's very little issue, since we last see her at the end of the third novel and she doesn't return until the sixth one, so a lot more time has passed since we last saw her and we knew very little about her even in the third book. 

Heck they'll probably have rewrite Drummer completely if they ever adapt the 7th novel, since she's basically a completely different person in that novel, compared to the one on the tv show.

Yeah, they should have at least hinted of Drummer joining a marriage group in season 4. Season 4 from start to end technically takes place over a long time, and really there is a significant time jump between the end of season 4 and start of season 5 with the Roci returning to the Sol system, and how long it's been since Marco sent off the first rocks etc.

They did sort of give Pa's background to Drummer much earlier, though. Drummer worked with Dawes, then she left feeling betrayed by him. She has Pa's role, more elevated actually, on the Behemoth, and then she abandoned Fred in frustration. So like Pa, Drummer moved around. The bigger difference is she was forced to join Marco.

[Corvinus85]

@Ran I just remembered there are long range missiles. In season 2, the book 1 ending plot, Earth shot all those nuclear missiles at Eros to try to stop it. A portion of them were appropriated by Fred and used to intercept the hybrid pods going for Mars.

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

@Ran I just remembered there are long range missiles. In season 2, the book 1 ending plot, Earth shot all those nuclear missiles at Eros to try to stop it. A portion of them were appropriated by Fred and used to intercept the hybrid pods going for Mars.

Yep, though they were meant solely for Mars targets and they weren't likely to be effective against Mars except as a surprise attack. That was, iirc, one of the things earth was worried about - that their deterrence were not very deterring. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

nvm.  

Edited December 13, 2021 by 1066 Larry

[3CityApache]

On 12/11/2021 at 1:04 PM, Spockydog said:

What's up with the opening scene? Why even go there if they're not continuing the story?

I was under the impression we might get continuation of Strange Dogs in every episode's prologue. It would be really odd if they left it like this.

[Corvinus85]

Another solid episode. Enjoyed the action scenes related to the Roci, Marco's corruption and double-standards, and that Naomi has some PTSD to deal with. Also liked the dialogue between Drummer and Carlos Liang Walker.

I'm not sure about Rosenfeld. They gender swapped the character and now they've given Marco someone to flirt with.

[sifth]

On 12/13/2021 at 6:00 AM, 3CityApache said:

I was under the impression we might get continuation of Strange Dogs in every episode's prologue. It would be really odd if they left it like this.

You seem to be right. We got a similar prologue this week as well.

[Ran]

"Solid" feels right. It's giving me The Expanse but nothing really remarkable has happened as of yet, nothing to wow or even really engage deeply with. The most significant event of the episode is getting the locations of all the asteroids being used to bombard Earth, and I guess it's funny to see how quickly Marco just says, "Okay, the fight's here now." 

Oh, okay, one other thing: Drummer and  Liang Walker, the Golden Bough-Free Navy guy plotting to hit the supply depots. That was interesting and promises some future action to come.

(On a down note, I feel sorry for the young actress in the prologue. She was fine with what she was given in the first episode, but she was extremely one-note and with uninspired dialogue here. Shame. On the bright side, the "strange dog" design is pretty cool.)

Edited December 17, 2021 by Ran

[Poobah]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

On the bright side, the "strange dog" design is pretty cool.

That's interesting. I thought the birds looked good but something about the design or texture of the dog made it look really fake and crappy to me - I think it looked better last episode when we only had a glimpse but seeing it in the light and in motion I really didn't like it.

Overall I thought it was a fairly solid episode too, but a little fast paced for my liking perhaps? They seem to be really speeding towards plot points with less time for the quieter, more human moments and interactions that really sold me on The Expanse. I think this isn't helped by how much I dislike Filip and find him and his daddy issues to be uninteresting and not at all compelling when so much time is being given to it. I'd much rather see more of Marco, or Avasarala though she feels rather less interesting now she's Secretary-General and has all the power and resources than when she was in the trenches facing adversity and intrigue.