How do y'all think the Unsullied and Dothraki will perform in Westeros?

[Jaenara Belarys]

We all know (I hope) the lore for the Unsullied and Dothraki, but to me it seems like they've been inflated.....case in point: the Dothraki somehow being a threat despite being a horde of unarmored horseback riders for over 300 years despite the tale of the Three Thousand of Qohor and their apparent tactics (i.e charging straight at a line, rather than simply doing a caracole  over and over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracole). 

 

The Unsullied:

• They apparently fight in a phalanx, wearing quilted armor (I suppose we could interpret this as a gambeson or a Greek linthorax), but a phalanx is vulnerable to the right and the rear(since it it's all facing forward). Plus, textile armor simply isn't as good as a simple hauberk or half plate. 
• One of their advantages is that they don't feel pain, but if you don't feel pain won't you simply not do anything about it until it's a bit late? I suppose you could order them to report any wounds....
• They apparently ask no questions and follow all orders. Which means they won't take the initiative.....which means they might lose the battle. 
• Their fighting method is conductive to flat open terrain, and Westeros isn't all flat and dry

The Dothraki:

• Light unarmored (it's hard to communicate how quickly an unarmored person on a battlefield would be killed. And before somebody pops up talking about naked Gauls, they used shields which the Dothraki apparently don't. Plus, the Gauls were the ones who invented mail so....) nomadic cavalry, whose tactics and weapons don't seem to have really changed since Khal Temmo lost
• They don't have the patience for siege warfare
• In the Burgundian Wars, back in the 1400s, Swiss pikemen regularly cut apart heavy horse, armored knights. If they could do that to armored knights, how exactly would a pike square (with archers probably) fare against light cavalry who've been noted to simply charge something instead of a more intelligent tactic? 
• Same as the Unsullied for terrain problems

That said, how do you all think that they'll perform in Westeros (if they ever get there )? I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, if it is, please move it.

@Lord Lannister, @Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers, @Willam Stark, @StarksInTheNorth, @Aldarion, @Daeron the Daring

Edited November 2, 2021 by Jaenara Belarys

[SeanF]

Well, it’s subject to the rule of cool.  I take the points military history buffs make about the knights and men at arms of Westeros making short work of them, but Martin might make them very formidable.

That said, they may be very formidable in conjunction with other arms.  The Unsullied fight as spearman along with units of archers, halberdiers, and pikemen.  They now elect their officers, so they have more initiative.

The Unsullied are used as light cavalry to raid, harass, scout, and pursue the defeated.  But heavy horse are used to break the enemy.

Edited October 31, 2021 by SeanF

[Mister Smikes]

They will divide their efforts.  The Unsullied will slay the knights.  The Dothraki will rape and murder the smallfolk.

[Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers]

Unsullied are seasoned warriors and killers. They are under the command of Daenerys who has freed them all. Grey Worm seems to be an independent thinker and tactical leader. He is a good choice for commanding the Unsullied. The Dothraki fight in ways Westerosi cannot fathom. They also use foreign weapons and are parts of large hordes. Even without any advanced armor or weapons, the Dothraki can overwhelm Westerosi horsemen with sheer numbers.

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

In the Burgundian Wars, back in the 1400s, Swiss pikemen regularly cut apart heavy horse, armored knights. If they could do that to armored knights, how exactly would a pike square (with archers probably) fare against light cavalry who've been noted to simply charge something instead of a more intelligent tactic? 

The thing about the pikemen is true but Westeros has few experienced soldiers except in the North and Westerlands. Any armies assembled to fight Daenerys in the Reach and Stormlands will be composed of greybeards and green boys. They will easily break against a cavalry charge. But I don't think Daenerys will be fighting anybody in Westeros except maybe Young Griff. The Dothraki and Unsullied and freedmen will be fighting against wights and Others.

[Falcon2909]

aren't the dothraki afraid of the sea? How will dany make tens of thousands of dothraki overcome this fear?

[The Young Maester]

Westerosi archers go brrrr

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Grey Worm seems to be an independent thinker and tactical leader.

Look at Barristan's war council and all of Daenerys' councils. He doesn't propose any strategies, he just says that they'll do as they're told. 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Well, it’s subject to the rule of cool.  I take the points military history buffs make about the knights and men at arms of Westeros making short work of them, but Martin might make them very formidable.

 

Yes, but you also have to make it realistic. 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Unsullied are used as light cavalry to raid, harass, scout, and pursue the defeated.  But heavy horse are used to break the enemy.

I believe you mean the "Dothraki are used as light cavalry"? For the heavy horse, you would need longbows and pikes. Pikes to keep them at a distance (no, the cavalry will not smash into the pike wall, horses won't run themselves onto a unbroken line of men holding pointy sticks) while the longbows....do what longbows do (i.e. Crecy). 

28 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

aren't the dothraki afraid of the sea? How will dany make tens of thousands of dothraki overcome this fear?

I should add that.....but simply assume that she somehow did convince them. 

Just now, The Young Maester said:

Westerosi archers go brrrr

Go brrrrr??

Edited November 1, 2021 by Jaenara Belarys

[The Young Maester]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Go brrrrr??

Exactly

[Jaenara Belarys]

Just now, The Young Maester said:

Exactly

I meant, what does "go brrr" mean? 

[The Young Maester]

Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

I meant, what does "go brrr" mean? 

Eh just a silly joke, or sort of meme I think. Essentially mimicking the sound of a machine gun or cannon etc.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:22 PM, The Young Maester said:

Eh just a silly joke, or sort of meme I think. Essentially mimicking the sound of a machine gun or cannon etc.

A skilled archer could loose about twelve arrows a minute back in medieval times. Not as fast a machine gun, but with enough archers you could pull a Crecy. 

On 10/31/2021 at 4:35 PM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

The thing about the pikemen is true but Westeros has few experienced soldiers except in the North and Westerlands. Any armies assembled to fight Daenerys in the Reach and Stormlands will be composed of greybeards and green boys. They will easily break against a cavalry charge. But I don't think Daenerys will be fighting anybody in Westeros except maybe Young Griff. The Dothraki and Unsullied and freedmen will be fighting against wights and Others.

The armies of the Reach haven't seen action for the most part, so I doubt it'll be of greybeards and green boys. Plus, horses aren't battering rams (looking at you Rohirrim charges). 

On 10/31/2021 at 4:35 PM, Brynden"Bloodraven" Rivers said:

Even without any advanced armor or weapons, the Dothraki can overwhelm Westerosi horsemen with sheer numbers.

Plate armor was very hard to pierce with longbows and crossbows, so I kind of doubt any recurved bow could do much against an armored knight. Whips and arakhs won't do much against an armored enemy anyway. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Jaenara Belarys

[dbergkvist]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Eh just a silly joke, or sort of meme I think. Essentially mimicking the sound of a machine gun or cannon etc.

The origin has nothing to do with machine guns, though: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/money-printer-go-brrr

[Daenerysthegreat]

Very well in fact

The unsullied are the best infantry and the dothraki are the best cavalry in the world. Put them together and you have the makings of invincible stew

[Tucu]

Like the Grande Armée in Russia

[Lord Stank]

I think that by the time Dany actually makes it to Westeros, Euron and his navy will be a much greater threat than any of the other Westerosi forces. Like Harren the Black but way worse. The ironborn hold the Shield Islands and the Mander for now but I have no doubt that Euron will achieve whatever he's planning near Oldtown and take control of significant parts of Westeros. There is absolutely no way that the Dothraki and unsullied will be able to face the ironborn and their naval tactics. That aside, I also agree with you that neither of them, especially the Dothraki have ever faced an army that was properly armored and equipped. And both the scenes with Jorah and Barristan defeating similar enemies because of their armor and fighting technique seems to be small indication of things to come.

[Darth Sidious]

Westeros will lose. The combined strength of the Dothraki and Dany’s Unsullied will be too much for them.  The men in the iron suits will die. 

[Daenerysthegreat]

2 minutes ago, Laren Dorr said:

Westeros will lose. The combined strength of the Dothraki and Dany’s Unsullied will be too much for them.  The men in the iron suits will die. 

Well yes they will be. But it will have an additional factor. Most of westerosi army is untrained peasants. 

[Darth Sidious]

1 minute ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well yes they will be. But it will have an additional factor. Most of westerosi army is untrained peasants. 

Other factors like that. The war of the five kings weakened most of the lords. 
 

There will be other specialized armies from Essos coming if Dany decides to battle the lords. Archers from the southern islands, mercenaries, sailors from Braavos, and can even include people we haven’t met. I honestly do not think it will come to that. Conquest by marriage is likely. 

[WhatAnArtist!]

Frankly, I think Martin went too far in making the Dothraki so primitive. Even their historical inspirations - the nomadic Turks and the Mongols - used shields, armour and sophisticated tactics because of their proximity to more developed civilisations (e.g. China, Persia). That's how they were able to eventually beat them. They took things from their enemies and adapted them into new and innovative variations. The Dothraki adapt nothing and learn nothing. The history buff inside me desperately wants them to cross the Narrow Sea and be effortlessly exterminated in a single battle by a Westerosi army that actually wears armour and uses spears and shields.

[Mithras]

Very poorly. But that is not a problem because their numbers will already be reduced by a large proportion on the way to Westeros. Dany will bring only a token of them, enough to be dubbed as bringing savages from Essos. But Dany's main power in the upcoming Dance against fAegon will be Westerosi armies and her dragons.