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Star Trek: Strange New Gorns


SpaceChampion
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Okay....Strange New Worlds...

Solid first episode, if kinda unremarkable in its story.

While I have not seen more than 10 minutes of any part of Discovery, I've read enough here, and other places, to know most of what's going on there.  That they've done this thing with Pike, having him in a situation to know where he is going to be in ten years, and how that impacts Christopher Pike the character on SNW, that's bold.  It's absolutely going to be the through line of most everything they do as a show, assuming they don't go switching a number of show runners and creators. 

I genuinely like the blend of established characters with the new ones. M'Benga is a great choice of a recognizable name, yet someone we know nothing about.  However, in The Cage, it's seems pretty well established that Pike and Dr. Boyce have a long history together.  How does that come about?  Or does M'Benga head off to Starfleet medical in the second season and Pike brings his old friend into the fold...?

Uhura as a cadet on the ship?  Works for me. 

The Khan descendant as the Security Officer though?  That seems...problematic story-wise.  I realize that there has been a bunch of re-imagining and glossing over of some of the story beats from Khan's first appearance.  I mean, Kirk and Spock had to all but look him up once they realized who he was in "Space Seed".  But then Enterprise used the Augments and Soong to chip away at the myth, up to and including this as the reasoning for the appearance of 1960s Klingons. If it somehow came about that this character was revealed to be a Khan descendant that was hiding that fact over the course of the show, that might be different.  But how does one float about so actively within the Federation at this point?

Chapel is the biggest issue for me right now.  For her to be this civilian specialist that she apparently is at the moment, with her doctorate no less!, to turn around and become a humble nurse on the ship?  That feels like the biggest alteration at the moment.

Everything else in this show can dovetail into what is already established canon, I think.  I also think they're going to be able to do it without really talking about Discovery much more.

The Enterprise looked good.  It had some of that 60s aesthetic to it, while still bringing the sets and models into the 21st century.  It's done in such a way that I don't think of it as a distraction that it, "doesn't look like it does in Kirk's time!"  I mean, it seems to be proportionally correct, not that monstrosity of strange size and space of the Abrahms horror show.

After one episode, I absolutely got the "Trek" vibe that I think they were looking for.  Let's see if it keeps going.

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Not sure why these new series struggle so much with stardates; this first episode of SNW began with 1739.12, putting it just after TOS Season 1 Episode 8, and then switched to the Kelvin system at the end for some weird reason, 2259.42 (indicating the actual year, which is a stupid ass system as what’s the point).

TOS wasn’t super consistent, but crudely speaking it went from 1300 to 5000ish across its run. Discovery kept ballsing this up with plenty of episodes sprinkled within those numbers.

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58 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Okay....Strange New Worlds...

Solid first episode, if kinda unremarkable in its story.

While I have not seen more than 10 minutes of any part of Discovery, I've read enough here, and other places, to know most of what's going on there.  That they've done this thing with Pike, having him in a situation to know where he is going to be in ten years, and how that impacts Christopher Pike the character on SNW, that's bold.  It's absolutely going to be the through line of most everything they do as a show, assuming they don't go switching a number of show runners and creators. 

I genuinely like the blend of established characters with the new ones. M'Benga is a great choice of a recognizable name, yet someone we know nothing about.  However, in The Cage, it's seems pretty well established that Pike and Dr. Boyce have a long history together.  How does that come about?  Or does M'Benga head off to Starfleet medical in the second season and Pike brings his old friend into the fold...?

Uhura as a cadet on the ship?  Works for me. 

The Khan descendant as the Security Officer though?  That seems...problematic story-wise.  I realize that there has been a bunch of re-imagining and glossing over of some of the story beats from Khan's first appearance.  I mean, Kirk and Spock had to all but look him up once they realized who he was in "Space Seed".  But then Enterprise used the Augments and Soong to chip away at the myth, up to and including this as the reasoning for the appearance of 1960s Klingons. If it somehow came about that this character was revealed to be a Khan descendant that was hiding that fact over the course of the show, that might be different.  But how does one float about so actively within the Federation at this point?

Chapel is the biggest issue for me right now.  For her to be this civilian specialist that she apparently is at the moment, with her doctorate no less!, to turn around and become a humble nurse on the ship?  That feels like the biggest alteration at the moment.

Everything else in this show can dovetail into what is already established canon, I think.  I also think they're going to be able to do it without really talking about Discovery much more.

The Enterprise looked good.  It had some of that 60s aesthetic to it, while still bringing the sets and models into the 21st century.  It's done in such a way that I don't think of it as a distraction that it, "doesn't look like it does in Kirk's time!"  I mean, it seems to be proportionally correct, not that monstrosity of strange size and space of the Abrahms horror show.

After one episode, I absolutely got the "Trek" vibe that I think they were looking for.  Let's see if it keeps going.

I like your summation.  The commercials for this are the first thing that has tempted me to get Paramount.  Discovery and Picard had no appeal.  But the first look I got at the Enterprise had my interest piqued.

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2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

The Khan descendant as the Security Officer though?  That seems...problematic story-wise.  I realize that there has been a bunch of re-imagining and glossing over of some of the story beats from Khan's first appearance.  I mean, Kirk and Spock had to all but look him up once they realized who he was in "Space Seed".  But then Enterprise used the Augments and Soong to chip away at the myth, up to and including this as the reasoning for the appearance of 1960s Klingons. If it somehow came about that this character was revealed to be a Khan descendant that was hiding that fact over the course of the show, that might be different.  But how does one float about so actively within the Federation at this point?

They weren't familiar with Khan, but he was just of several mad tyrants during the Eugenics Wars. And the historian did know him from the start. The augments were connected to the Eugenics guys, but I don't remember that Khan was that important there as a reference point. Not to mention that this was 100 years closer to the war as such.

Generally, I find it always great when folks have no clue what the primitive days were like. It is very refreshing in TOS, for instance, when 'Squire' Trelaine's cultural stereotypes only irritate the crew. They are so beyond this now that they don't even understand that shit. It's as relevant to them as medieval Burgundy to us.

When folks later all are eccentric lovers of 20th century nonsense it really starts to get annoying, e.g. Mr. Baseball Sisko, Tom being into Flash Gordon nonsense, etc.

What is kind of vexing that, yet again, no Indian actor is going to play the Khan descendant. Ricardo Montalban was great in the role, of course, but having Cumberbatch play him sucked. Of course, La'an is so far removed in the family tree that she doesn't have to be or look Indian - but they didn't have to do that.

I'd expect La'an being Khan's descendant doesn't mean she is genetically enhanced in a problematic manner. Whatever traits she might or might not have are likely to be within the limits the Federation permits.

2 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Chapel is the biggest issue for me right now.  For her to be this civilian specialist that she apparently is at the moment, with her doctorate no less!, to turn around and become a humble nurse on the ship?  That feels like the biggest alteration at the moment.

As I said above, I think, Chapel's scientific background in biology is established in TOS. She is a civilian scientists who happens to works as a Starfleet nurse. That isn't a massive change, although it is as weird as Deanna not having a proper rank until very late in the show.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

As I said above, I think, Chapel's scientific background in biology is established in TOS. She is a civilian scientists who happens to works as a Starfleet nurse. That isn't a massive change, although it is as weird as Deanna not having a proper rank until very late in the show.

Right.  I get what you said.  However, my point is that they've gone and created this strong female character (who was only channeling the Alice Eve Carol Marcus character a smidge, I thought) and she's going to be a significant player on this show, at least this first season.  They've referred to her as, "Doctor".  She obviously is someone in her own right and to have her simply morph into some sort of weaker, background support player that is the Nurse Chapel (no matter how much people may or may not like her) isn't going to be an easy sell.  There is a vast difference between the 1 episode of Chapel we've gotten on SNW and what we're used to on TOS.  Biology background or not be damned.  I think it's problematic.  That's all.

 

(Troi always had a rank.  She clearly has Lt. Commander pips on her uniform in Encounter at Farpoint.  It's just she didn't wear standard uniforms after that until the last half of the sixth season and beyond...)

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54 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Right.  I get what you said.  However, my point is that they've gone and created this strong female character (who was only channeling the Alice Eve Carol Marcus character a smidge, I thought) and she's going to be a significant player on this show, at least this first season.  They've referred to her as, "Doctor".  She obviously is someone in her own right and to have her simply morph into some sort of weaker, background support player that is the Nurse Chapel (no matter how much people may or may not like her) isn't going to be an easy sell.  There is a vast difference between the 1 episode of Chapel we've gotten on SNW and what we're used to on TOS.  Biology background or not be damned.  I think it's problematic.  That's all.

Yes, from that perspective it certainly is problematic. And from what I read up then one of the showrunners really wants to do different stuff with her than the original character. Which, if actually done, would mean that they should have perhaps created a new and original character for that. Or they could have used one of the many female guest stars from TOS. Say, the psychologist from the pilot who gets transformed along with Mitchell.

I'd only add that any TOS-era female character suffers from that problem. Uhura isn't the same character, either (she also wasn't in the Abrams movies), nor will any other female character in SNW even remotely resemble a female character as written in the 1960s. Nor will the attutide of the men towards the women.

I guess the 'doctor' there means that Chapel has a doctor in biology which makes her a scientist but not qualified to be a Starfleet medical doctor. This whole thing with scientists and science officers being able to advise the doctors on certain issues but not being able to replace them is recurring theme in Trek. Think about the dynamics between Julian and Jadzia in DS9, Spock and McCoy, T'Pol and Phlox, etc.

I guess I'd have neither had Uhura nor Chapel a main character in SNW. Instead, I guess, one could have used Janice Rand whose background is less defined and who certainly could have been on board as cadet.

54 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

(Troi always had a rank.  She clearly has Lt. Commander pips on her uniform in Encounter at Farpoint.  It's just she didn't wear standard uniforms after that until the last half of the sixth season and beyond...)

Oh, yes, I confused it with her later 'command training' plot. It has been a long time that I watched TNG. Still have to go through all the remastered episodes.

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Having Uhura on the ship as a cadet isn't a total departure.  They established with Saavik that it happens.  (Hell, I think it's part of Kirk's non-canon backstory as well.)  You're right that just about any female character from TOS isn't going to be the same.  That's to the good, I think.  But it also means that those characters are blank slates to be given proper due.  There's no reason Uhura couldn't have come aboard the Enterprise as a cadet under Pike.  Whether she stays on for the next 10 to 12 years as part of Kirk's crew...? Eh. 

And yes, Chapel's part probably should have been a different character.  Again, she's the one character that's playing a little to Abrahmsverse for me at the moment.  But we'll see where it goes.

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1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Having Uhura on the ship as a cadet isn't a total departure.

I'm totally fine with her being there in principle. And so far there isn't that much departure, anyway, and I think you can minimize it. I just would prefer it that the character isn't revamped and suddenly no longer has any interest in music or singing, for instance.

Even the fact that she is introduced as a prodigy isn't something new - after all, TOS had Spock of all people tell Uhuru that she is the best in her field and he isn't her equal there. That means something.

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

You're right that just about any female character from TOS isn't going to be the same.  That's to the good, I think.  But it also means that those characters are blank slates to be given proper due.  There's no reason Uhura couldn't have come aboard the Enterprise as a cadet under Pike.  Whether she stays on for the next 10 to 12 years as part of Kirk's crew...? Eh.

I guess Uhuru can also leave eventually to take a stint on another ship. I mean, we likely are not going to get 10-12 seasons of SNW, so that's not going to be a big problem.

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

And yes, Chapel's part probably should have been a different character.  Again, she's the one character that's playing a little to Abrahmsverse for me at the moment.  But we'll see where it goes.

Yes, I got that impression as well, but I thought that was not *that* much of an issue since she is an civilian outsider and can thus behave in a different manner. But she clearly isn't all that reminiscent of Majel Barrett's Chapel, either, so, yes, that's clearly a diversion from the original character.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm totally fine with her being there in principle. And so far there isn't that much departure, anyway, and I think you can minimize it. I just would prefer it that the character isn't revamped and suddenly no longer has any interest in music or singing, for instance.

Even the fact that she is introduced as a prodigy isn't something new - after all, TOS had Spock of all people tell Uhuru that she is the best in her field and he isn't her equal there. That means something.

I guess Uhuru can also leave eventually to take a stint on another ship. I mean, we likely are not going to get 10-12 seasons of SNW, so that's not going to be a big problem.

Yes, I got that impression as well, but I thought that was not *that* much of an issue since she is an civilian outsider and can thus behave in a different manner. But she clearly isn't all that reminiscent of Majel Barrett's Chapel, either, so, yes, that's clearly a diversion from the original character.

Chapel, early on, was essentially cadging a lift on the Enterprise to find her fiancee(?). She finds him, he’s killed, and she decidesto stay on the ship

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9 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Could Anson Mount’s hair be any more glorious? Seriously.

I have a cousin who had his nearly identical to that about 5 years ago and I've been trying to grow mine like that ever since out of jealousy, but mine just looks like it was bombed by a photon torpedo.  I keep trying though.  This is my Kobayashi Maru.  No winning, but I don't give up.

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11 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Chapel, early on, was essentially cadging a lift on the Enterprise to find her fiancee(?). She finds him, he’s killed, and she decidesto stay on the ship

I don't think that's actually what's being questioned.  It's the complete 180 for her to be a PhD in biology, working as a civilian specialist.  Oh I know what the wiki entries and Memory Alpha says.  It's just odd.  Odd, but it was the 60s originally.  However in 2021 and soft re-booting some of these characters to brings them into the 21st century, there are some oddities to how they've played her.

From Wiki:

In "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", it is explained that Chapel abandoned a career in bio-research for a position in Starfleet. She had hoped that this would reunite her with her fiancé Dr. Roger Korby (Michael Strong), incommunicado following his expedition to the planet Exo III. Five years after Korby's disappearance, Chapel was assigned to the USS Enterprise where she served as head nurse, working under Dr. McCoy.

 

Kirk and Chapel beam down and discover Korby had been exploiting a sophisticated android manufacturing technology on the planet. After Chapel is horrified to find out that Korby had transplanted his personality into an android replica, he kills himself in despair. Roddenberry later co-wrote in The Making of Star Trek that the actions of that episode resulted in Chapel breaking her ties to Earth and devoting herself to Starfleet service.

After Korby's death, Chapel doubted if she should stay aboard, but elected to remain with the Enterprise throughout the five-year mission.

I realize that this shouldn't bug me as much as it does.  But this is one character that timelines feel off.  The story seems odd. Ah well.  

 

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Also, on another note, in a discussion with a friend of mine.  And the question is:

"Is SNW set in an alternate timeline than the prime timeline of TOS and TNG?  Is this a "Discovery Timeline" and that gives more freedom to make alterations?

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6 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Also, on another note, in a discussion with a friend of mine.  And the question is:

"Is SNW set in an alternate timeline than the prime timeline of TOS and TNG?  Is this a "Discovery Timeline" and that gives more freedom to make alterations?

There’s certainly a lot of people who would say yes, but ultimately if the people who own the franchise say it’s the same then it’s the same. I shall still lament that the visual continuity Star Trek had from 66 to 05 has been abandoned, but seems I’ll have to live with that.

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On 5/9/2022 at 11:07 AM, Lord Varys said:

Or one could go with a really new thing (for Trek) and have either have a ship explore another galaxy or have them make contact with an extragalactic species.

Well...

Spoiler

They did make contact with an extra-galactic species in the latest season of Discovery. And it wouldn't shock me one bit if the next season moves to Discovery heading to another galaxy.

Quote

 

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On 5/10/2022 at 10:02 AM, SpaceChampion said:

I have a cousin who had his nearly identical to that about 5 years ago and I've been trying to grow mine like that ever since out of jealousy, but mine just looks like it was bombed by a photon torpedo.  I keep trying though.  This is my Kobayashi Maru.  No winning, but I don't give up.

So getting a wig would be the Kirk cheat code, right?

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4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Well...

  Hide contents

They did make contact with an extra-galactic species in the latest season of Discovery. And it wouldn't shock me one bit if the next season moves to Discovery heading to another galaxy.

Oh, I know that, but I don't think they really count. Yes, there were beyond the magical Galactic Barrier, but they weren't from another galaxy in the sense that they had travelled there. They seemed to originate from the planet which was still part of the Milky Way but not within the confines of the Galactic Barrier.

And I think I said it back when discussing the season that the behavior of the weird allies would have made much more sense if they had indeed been from another galaxy, only hanging out at the borders of the Milky Way for their mining operation. After all, if life in their galaxy was completely different and/or they had never discovered any sentient life but their own ... their actions would have made much more sense than they do in the show.

I mean, what species this advanced wouldn't realize that folks would be killed by the kind of damage they cause? And how could they possibly not realize what they are doing with their tech? It just didn't make much sense.

But in general 'the extra-galactic alien thing' might also not be that great an idea, now that I think about it. DS9 already had very different alien life with the Founders, so they would have to come up with a really great idea for non-humanoid sentient life to make that a compelling story.

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So the second Civil War, the Eugenics War and WW:III were all the same war? That's one part of this episode, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Heck wasn't the Eugenics War, suppose to take place during the 90's, lol

Edited by sifth
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