US Politics: A Post-Roe Country

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

But apparently knowing that this is a bigger problem in America then the rest of the developed world combined is being a propagandist so there's no way to ever get ideas from other countries.

And that’s why you have to conclude that there’s some level of psychosis that’s affecting the average conservative mind in America. They’re so detached from reality that even the most obvious facts cannot penetrate the bubble they’re in.

[Jaxom 1974]

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

I don't have sufficient knowledge of the situation or of police tactics to say whether the officers were right or wrong in this case.

I do know that the discussion of that aspect of the situation is one I'm not interested in. Because it shifts responsibility to the police response, and by the time the police response is a factor, it's already a tragedy. Prevention is the issue. Not response.

Agreed.  

But shouldn't there also be some accountability in the nature of the response?  Particularly as said response is supposed based upon the measures Republicans and the NRA think are sufficient?  Some sort of investigation isn't going to cure this disease, but it may help move the needle on how we get to curing the disease.  (If that makes sense.)

And I'm not suggesting said investigation begin now, this very moment, but in a few weeks?  Again, sounds like the kind of thing proper investigative journalism could tackle...

[Jaxom 1974]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

And that’s why you have to conclude that there’s some level of psychosis that’s affecting the average conservative mind in America. They’re so detached from reality that even the most obvious facts cannot penetrate the bubble they’re in.

If this had been the school the daughters of Ted Cruz attended...how would he duck and cover then?

[Zorral]

Political corruption, authoritarian nationalism, guns, mental health, police failure, etc. are interconnected and intersectional in Uvalde, and it's all right there for everybody to see, or if a cop or a Cruz, to deny deny deny.  It's a remarkably perfect storm.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

I'm guessing he ran off to Cancun again after this.

That wouldn’t shock me even a little…

[Argonath Diver]

I was at a local sports bar for a hockey game last night. In between the random shouting at the images of men hitting each other while chasing a dog toy on ice, there was plenty of time for intelligent discourse regarding the shooting. 

No, that's not true. An entire cadre of bros showed absolutely no sign of empathy for the families, but were extremely angry that libs were gonna have momentum to Com Git Er Gunz. Many a promise to die for those guns, no word of dead children. I always am silent - they all dismiss me as "a city guy" if I engage. That I went to high school with several of them is irrelevant.

Suffice to say, this country is woefully divided on this issue and I haven't a shred of optimism. We are a nation slowly dulled into acquiescence of horrors at the behest of our stubbornest antiquated logic.

[mormont]

23 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Agreed.  

But shouldn't there also be some accountability in the nature of the response?  Particularly as said response is supposed based upon the measures Republicans and the NRA think are sufficient?  Some sort of investigation isn't going to cure this disease, but it may help move the needle on how we get to curing the disease.  (If that makes sense.)

And I'm not suggesting said investigation begin now, this very moment, but in a few weeks?  Again, sounds like the kind of thing proper investigative journalism could tackle...

I'd say that such an inquiry plays into the idea that there is, at least in theory, some sort of response police can make to these incidents that would be adequate. And there is not.

I'm no fan of US police departments, but it seems to me there's an assumption behind a lot of the criticisms here that had these police officers only been more heroic in some way they could have saved the kids. That plays into the 'good guy with a gun', action-hero-can-save-us mentality. The reality is you're asking people who went out to work that morning to potentially volunteer to die. That should not be a police officer's job. If that has become a police officer's job, you're trying to address the wrong problem when you talk about police tactics.

(And all of this assumes that earlier police intervention would have saved lives - which sadly we can't be sure of.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just saw this.  There may be another shooting going on near Austin:

 

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, JGP said:

Like, I know and have known plenty of gun owners. All of them seemed fine with required checks, and none of them owned AR type rifles. Rare sampling, of course, but suggestive. Even cross party, gun owners aren't assholes in general.

I mean, use the Tea Party tack or something, but by progressives of all stripes, and everyone else who has a heart? Citizen pressure for legit gun control by State Referendum, maybe? Is that even a US process anymore?

Rules on referendums vary widely from state to state. Some states do not allow them at all (and never have.) Exactly what issues can be voted on by referendum, and whether a referendum can be initiated by citizen petition or not, is going to be under different and unique rules according to every state. I have no idea what the rules are about referendums in Texas. 

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Here is the coward Ted Cruz running from hard questions:

 

What I heard Ted Cruz say:

USA! USA!

Democrats suck!

USA! USA!

Democrats suck!

Propaganda!  Watch Fox News!

Then he ran away to hide in a corner.

Oh, brave Senator Cruz!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

If this had been the school the daughters of Ted Cruz attended...how would he duck and cover then?

He'd just scream about more guns, more security with zero introspection. 

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The reality is you're asking people who went out to work that morning to potentially volunteer to die. That should not be a police officer's job. If that has become a police officer's job, you're trying to address the wrong problem when you talk about police tactics.

That's the job in America and it will always be that way.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

I'd say that such an inquiry plays into the idea that there is, at least in theory, some sort of response police can make to these incidents that would be adequate. And there is not.

I'm no fan of US police departments, but it seems to me there's an assumption behind a lot of the criticisms here that had these police officers only been more heroic in some way they could have saved the kids. That plays into the 'good guy with a gun', action-hero-can-save-us mentality. The reality is you're asking people who went out to work that morning to potentially volunteer to die. That should not be a police officer's job. If that has become a police officer's job, you're trying to address the wrong problem when you talk about police tactics.

(And all of this assumes that earlier police intervention would have saved lives - which sadly we can't be sure of.)

Hmmmmm...yes, I see your point.  I am vehemently opposed to the whole, "good guy" idea and don't want to be suggesting I want to reinforce it.  

I do, however, believe police are meant to, "serve and protect".  I do not think throwing their lives away needlessly in some situations is warranted.  However, it does seem that, in a case like this, this is the time to be heroic.  And I'm not suggesting going after the shooter.  No, in this case, those officers waiting inside could have tried to clear as much of that building as they could.  I don't know.  Maybe it's just frustration at the whole concept, knowing that it could be MY kids next time...

Based on today's press conference though, something seems off and fishy about the response in general.

[mormont]

To be clear, I'm aware that the local PD had a ridiculously overequipped and overfunded SWAT team, for example, and I'm not defending the local PD. My point is that the mentality that says 'the police should have been more proactive' is the same mentality that led to that white elephant existing.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The reality is you're asking people who went out to work that morning to potentially volunteer to die. That should not be a police officer's job. If that has become a police officer's job, you're trying to address the wrong problem when you talk about police tactics.

That is precisely their job. It's why they have almost no oversight, very high salaries, and lavish pensions. The implicit bargain is that we reward them constantly and never stop their worst impulses, but they do the really dangerous shit so we don't have to. Now there's a strong argument to be made that this has been a bad bargain for society already. But if the police aren't even going to hold up their end of it, then what the fuck good are they for?

[Ormond]

10 minutes ago, Fez said:

That is precisely their job. It's why they have almost no oversight, very high salaries, and lavish pensions. The implicit bargain is that we reward them constantly and never stop their worst impulses, but they do the really dangerous shit so we don't have to. Now there's a strong argument to be made that this has been a bad bargain for society already. But if the police aren't even going to hold up their end of it, then what the fuck good are they for?

You all don't seem to be taking into account that Uvalde, Texas is a town of 15,000 people. I am sure their police officers do not get as much training in school shooter or hostage situations as those in a large city would. I have no idea what their pensions are like, but their salaries don't seem to be lavish. If what I have just found on the Internet is correct, the average salary for a Uvalde police officer is $47,383 while the average salary for a teacher in the Uvalde public schools is $58,873.  That's probably enough money to be "OK" in a small South Texas town if you don't have a lot of kids, but certainly isn't anywhere near enough to be called "very high". 

There may very well be a whole lot of things to justly criticize the Uvalde police for when the final reports on this tragedy are issued. But it seems unfair to be automatically conflating their situation with that of police in San Antonio or Austin, much less Minneapolis, Los Angeles, or New York. 

[Fragile Bird]

You know, the lives of children have very little value in law, because they are merely children who have not yet proven that they actually have worth.

Adults, on the other hand, have track records and proven values. They have been invested in! Think how much money was spent to train those police officers! They own houses and cars and many are married with families! Their lives are important!

Children are replaceable, with other children. A dead child may bring grief and pain, but that will largely go away after a period of time. Not completely, but hey, just make another kid!

Juries might award millions of dollars in lawsuits to the parents for pain and suffering, but cases are usually settled for much much less afterwards, because the parties know an appeals court may very well reduce the jury award.

It doesn’t surprise me that nothing gets done to stop the gun lobby in the US, the legislators are mainly lawyers and they have this mindset that children’s lives really aren’t that valuable.

Okay, okay, I’m being really, really cynical there. But maybe at the back of minds there’s this idea that ultimately, they’re just children.

[Mindwalker]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

Standard police training in the US ever since Columbine is to respond to school shootings by engaging immediately. It is supposed to be drilled into cops' heads to not treat them like ordinary hostage situations because the motivations are so different.

These cops were cowards, incompetent, or both.

Now, let's not jump to conclusions. It's also possible they just didn't give a rat's ass.

[Week]

15 minutes ago, Ormond said:

You all don't seem to be taking into account that Uvalde, Texas is a town of 15,000 people. I am sure their police officers do not get as much training in school shooter or hostage situations as those in a large city would. I have no idea what their pensions are like, but their salaries don't seem to be lavish. If what I have just found on the Internet is correct, the average salary for a Uvalde police officer is $47,383 while the average salary for a teacher in the Uvalde public schools is $58,873.  That's probably enough money to be "OK" in a small South Texas town if you don't have a lot of kids, but certainly isn't anywhere near enough to be called "very high". 

There may very well be a whole lot of things to justly criticize the Uvalde police for when the final reports on this tragedy are issued. But it seems unfair to be automatically conflating their situation with that of police in San Antonio or Austin, much less Minneapolis, Los Angeles, or New York. 

40% of the city budget went to a police force (with a loaded SWAT team that had an armed march through the school a few months ago) that arrested and tackled more parents (>3) than shooters (0)

[Mindwalker]

Apparently, the husband of one of the teachers who got killed suffered a fatal heart attack. 4 children left behind.

[Ormond]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

40% of the city budget went to a police force (with a loaded SWAT team that had an armed march through the school a few months ago) that arrested and tackled more parents (>3) than shooters (0)

I said there probably would be things to criticize them for. And that 40% of a small town's budget goes for the police force doesn't seem out of line to me, and hasn't resulted in huge salaries. (The school district is separate from the city so none of the money for schools is included in the city budget.)