US Politics: What will the InJustice League do next?

[Ran]

Chinese local officials forced people to have abortions or to get vasectomies not too long ago. That is changing:

Quote

For more than three decades, Chinese authorities forced men and women to undergo sterilization to control population growth. Now, as the government tries to reverse a plummeting birthrate that it fears could threaten social stability and the economy, hospitals are turning away men seeking vasectomies.

Right now it cuts the other way: they'll force people to remain fertile/virile. No official bans or anything, but everyone looks at the recommendations from the government and they take a very cautious approach:

Quote

The worry for some couples is that authorities could turn to more forceful or restrictive measures akin to those used to enforce the one-child policy. Guidelines released by the State Council in September said local governments should try to reduce the number of abortions for “nonmedical reasons.”

More here, including the precipitous fall of vasectomy surgeries, hospitals outright stopping offering the procedure, etc. One can assume tubal ligations are similarly  getting more restricted.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, Larry of the Lake said:

How the fuck do you know what Darzin's students awareness of events is?  If China "doesn't get to lecture us" then you don't get to fucking comment on their human rights abuses either.  What the fuck makes you so special?

Everyone gets to criticize everyone’s human rights violations in my earnest opinion.  Hypocrisy never justifies or excuses someone else’s violations of human rights.

The invalid claim that hypocrisy means you cannot criticize is the essence of the Tu Quoque fallacy… isn’t it?  We’ve heard it ad nausuem from Tankies, QNuts, and Russian apologists regarding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

[Week]

7 hours ago, DMC said:

In terms of violations upon its own people?  Uh, no, this is absurd.  Here are recent human rights reports on China from Amnesty and Human Rights Watch.

Ok flag fuckers, then we're doing our best to move in that direction then as we remove women's rights, imprison millions, bomb and support bombings worldwide, etc etc

I guess state-directed brutality of citizens is worse than the implicitly (formerly explicitly) endorsed structural racism and brutalization we've had since 1619.

[DMC]

30 minutes ago, Week said:

Ok flag fuckers

Well argued.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

40 minutes ago, Week said:

Ok flag fuckers, then we're doing our best to move in that direction then as we remove women's rights, imprison millions, bomb and support bombings worldwide, etc etc

I guess state-directed brutality of citizens is worse than the implicitly (formerly explicitly) endorsed structural racism and brutalization we've had since 1619.

Who is claiming that?  And how does that justify any human rights violations commited by China?

[Week]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well argued.

Facetious and exaggeration to make a point. Oh well. I pray that I didn't offend.

Scot, sigh, of course it doesn't. Last I checked this was a US Politics thread and not a China Politics thread.

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Week said:

Facetious and exaggeration to make a point. Oh well. I pray that I didn't offend.

One name: Peng Shuai. Would Serena Williams be disappeared if she came out and said a former cabinet member sexually assaulted her?

Of course not, because despite the US' flaws, it's not totalitarian China. FFS...

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Week said:

Facetious and exaggeration to make a point. Oh well. I pray that I didn't offend.

You didn't offend, but I don't see a point, just pathos.  The US currently has a Freedom House score of 83.  That is obviously dropping and significantly lower than Germany's 94.  However, it's still quite a ways from China's score of 9.

[Week]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

You didn't offend, but I don't see a point, just pathos.  The US currently has a Freedom House score of 83.  That is obviously dropping and significantly lower than Germany's 94.  However, it's still quite a ways from China's score of 9.

We we're all feeling the freedom this weekend -- especially the two year old in Chicago that lost both parents and half the population that lost civil rights protection to bodily autonomy. Anyhow, that's freedom and not human rights and I think we both know the arrow is pointed southward for both at present trajectory. 

@Tywin et al., celebrity status notwithstanding, I guess we're decrying China for it's treatment of Peng Shuai while turning a blind eye to 2 million in prison, Rikers, George Floyd, Tamir Rice, etc etc

[Tywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Week said:

 

@Tywin et al., celebrity status notwithstanding, I guess we're decrying China for it's treatment of Peng Shuai while turning a blind eye to Rikers, George Floyd, Tamir Rice, etc etc

WHO TURNED A BLIND EYE TO GEORGE FLOYD? Holy fucking shit dude.

ETA: You could not have picked a worse example. Protests happened all over the world. If the same thing happened in China we'd probably never even hear a word about it.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Week said:

Anyhow, that's freedom and not human rights

Freedom House scores give numerical values to a country's political rights and civil liberties - in other words, human rights.

[Week]

41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

WHO TURNED A BLIND EYE TO GEORGE FLOYD? Holy fucking shit dude.

ETA: You could not have picked a worse example. Protests happened all over the world. If the same thing happened in China we'd probably never even hear a word about it.

Bad example -- I should have used the name of the thousands of others that disprove this anecdata (or millions in jail). Mea culpa. 

Is Guantanamo a shining example of US exemplar too? There have been many exposés, protests, etc and yet --

Eta- looking back, the point was state assault on civil liberties of individuals. George Floyd is certainly an example of that.

[TormundsWoman]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

In terms of violations upon its own people?  Uh, no, this is absurd.  Here are recent human rights reports on China from Amnesty and Human Rights Watch.

I read your link reports and then I read what Amnesty had to say about US and Germany:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/americas/north-america/united-states-of-america/report-united-states-of-america/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/germany/report-germany/

Maybe others would like to read and draw their own conclusions before they agree with your comment or Week’s. 

Personally I think “on its own people” should not be a distinction in this type of discussion, because we are all people. Should US government or military violate human rights on foreign nationals is still a human rights violation. Also human rights violations does not automatically mean explicit repression from your own government. Sometimes it’s them doing absolutely Jack shit about some old laws, or state ones or general insanity. Evil really does triumph if good people do nothing.

And with that I gotta say Germany is looking pretty good. Kudos to them and hope their list will be just as short if not shorter for as long as humanly possible! Though everything seems to go in cycles… so there’s that.

[Lord of Oop North]

I think what is missing here is the fact that Darzin's students are absolutely entitled to lecture and criticize America, despite their government's crimes. Everyone is entitled to that right, and those students especially are not culpable for the crimes of the CCP.

You are assuming a lot about those students. Maybe they do think their government is the best. I am sure therE are many that do. But even if some of those people do in fact not agree with their government, it is certainly not a smart decision for them to go out in public criticizing the Chinese Communist Party for various crimes.

[IheartIheartTesla]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Everyone gets to criticize everyone’s human rights violations in my earnest opinion.  Hypocrisy never justifies or excuses someone else’s violations of human rights.

I would like also to point out that the Chinese government probably shouldnt criticize other nations about human rights violations, unless they want to be accused of hypocrisy in turn.

But private citizens of any nation? Go right ahead. Just because Germany has a better freedom score than the US doesnt mean I wont criticize their government for what I think is not acceptable.

[TormundsWoman]

59 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

WHO TURNED A BLIND EYE TO GEORGE FLOYD? Holy fucking shit dude.

Please get down from the soapbox!  Just kidding.

The freedom of expression of the masses is only one part of the many items that constitute the human rights though. It is the most visible and we as Americans tend to put that first because it’s THAT important to us. You can take away our body autonomy or our lives but not my right to assembly and protest. However if you read that Amnesty Report it seems that some of the states do try to do something about that liberty by themselves, so they can curb it a bit as well.

Anyway the simple fact that freedom of  expression does not bring about changes it’s a sign we lack terribly in other areas.

And to pile on: China and their propaganda and people definitely are entitled to hypocritically point out our own  human rights faults and hypocrisy, as the posters above say and I agree,  regardless of the higher credit score we have.

[Padraig]

5 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I would like also to point out that the Chinese government probably shouldnt criticize other nations about human rights violations, unless they want to be accused of hypocrisy in turn.

But private citizens of any nation? Go right ahead. Just because Germany has a better freedom score than the US doesnt mean I wont criticize their government for what I think is not acceptable.

Yes.

I don't see a reason to be outraged that a few random students in China didn't agree with recent Supreme Court decisions.  Next those students will be shocked at Uvalde!  OMG.

[Knight Of Winter]

54 minutes ago, Week said:

We we're all feeling the freedom this weekend -- especially the two year old in Chicago that lost both parents and half the population that lost civil rights protection to bodily autonomy. Anyhow, that's freedom and not human rights and I think we both know the arrow is pointed southward for both at present trajectory. 

@Tywin et al., celebrity status notwithstanding, I guess we're decrying China for it's treatment of Peng Shuai while turning a blind eye to 2 million in prison, Rikers, George Floyd, Tamir Rice, etc etc

I get it that you're pissed at US's shortcomings and problems - we all are (each for their own country). That's fine. But comparing US to China, frankly, just displays ignorance about much worse problems and shortcomings China is facing; and generally speaking - lack of knowledge about anyone and anything outside of US. Want concrete examples?

- US had widespread MeToo movement - meanwhile Chinese Peng Shuai mysteriously disappeared after making a single accusation of a powerful politician
- US minorities face discrimination - Chinese (Uyghuri) minorities face labor camps education camps
- US was alarmed about Trump's authoritarian tendencies, China is much more authoritarian for decades
- US had widespread BLM protests, while China had....what exactly? What widespread protest or activism did China have? Oh, right, they can't protest against the government.

While Darzin's students are probably (I have no idea how true it is, but I'll take their word for it) correct that limiting abortion rights could not happen in China, there's a part of the equation which is missing. And that is Chinese are regularly faced with much more and much worse infringements of their rights. 

So yes, they're entitled to criticize US (or any other country) for their human rights violation - that's their prerogative. But they don't get to do it from an (implied) position of bewilderment and shock : for they see and know worse violation happening in China on a more regular basis.

[Heartofice]

Its a strange comparison, in addition to the above, entire cities have been locked down in China to reach zero Covid, people have been put into camps and facilities for weeks on end, pets were shot, people starved and not allowed out their houses.

We've seen the way the Chinese authorities have treated the people in Hong Kong who have dared to protest against the government.

Abortion rights and what has just happened in the US is shocking, but not long ago babies were being drowned in lakes in accordance with the one child policy in China, and absolutely horrific events occurred which are beyond imagination to Westerners. 

I just don't see there is any comparison at all. 

[Week]

The above by KoW sounds about white (and male).

Evidence of protests without any significant change (and widespread vilification by the right wing media, murder and harassment of leaders by police) and lionization of a young white murderer of two protesters (how's that nursing degree coming along?) None of your 'concrete' examples show a real understanding of the treatment of those events or backlash since.