Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[Wouter]

4 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

If they want to get to the end they have to consolidate things even if something like TGH looks like it would make a logical season. I’m fairly sure next season will be TDR plus TSR probably ending with the proclaiming of Rand as the caracarn. The early books are more packed than the later so like 1.5 books per season for the first six or seven books and then finish the show off in another 2-3 seasons.

Next season will be TSR (with maybe some leftovers from TDR, such as Tear), Rafe has confirmed this. TDR is mostly combined with TGH in s2.

A little moment I liked in this episode is Ishamael, in the cold open, looking up at the skyscrapers with a hint of regret in his eyes. Memories of the Age of Legends, I guess.

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Alanna who's clearly also Myrelle and her warders getting a bunch of screen time because it accomplishes a ton of different things ...

I get that and I agree with the decision to showcase all of what you listed. One of my favorite changes they made in the show is fleshing out the warders and making them real people with their own agency. I like the brotherhood they have built that we never got to see in the books. I like seeing Lan quietly talking to an older warder for perspective. (Tomas fucking rocks)

All I am saying is that I think they are spending too much time on it and I am not enjoying this much of Lan's angst and Moiraine going it alone, even if I understand it.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Gertrude

[karaddin]

I enjoyed the warders parts of this episode personally but I agree it's run it's course for now. I hope to see Lan either with the bond passed and doing whatever comes next or back with Moiraine (whichever they're doing) by the end of the next episode.

Also hoping that if the shield theory is correct then Rand notices it next ep and manages to remove it by the end of ep 6 at the longest or even notices and removes it in the same episode. I know they need to spin out narrative consequences from showing that happen to her at the end of season 1 but with the time skip they were able to show the end result of a lot of that rather than needing it on screen, unless there's something coming that relies on her not being able to channel this is long enough

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

Having said that, a sneak attack out of nowhere on a Forsaken is Moiraine's thing in the books, too. But I guess her book attack on Lanfear is unlikely to be in the show as well (assuming it gets a season 4), as it would be repetitive after this moment.

I will say this: if they took that fight between Rand, Lanfear and Moiraine at the docks of Cairhein and gave us Moiraine surprise stabbing Lanfear with a sword, they have failed the books. That was a good scene, and it will be a crying shame if nothing like it makes it to the show.

[Gigei]

The one thing I wanted next was Gaul. Sigh.

I guess it does make sense since he is a minor character in the books compared to Avi.

[SpaceChampion]

Consent and its lack (as an aspect of power, especially in the power dynamics between men and women) was always a major theme in the books.  The Last Battle fight between Moridin and Rand literally turns based on that.  Consents issues between a Warder and their Aes Sedai of course needs to be part of this story, and this thing between Lan and Moiraine is entirely part of that.  Even Alanna's sex antics is part of that, rather than just there for amusement, because what she desires she has consent for, in this case.  When/if Alanna later forcibly bonds Rand,  she better wrestle with the lack of consent.

[karaddin]

10 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I will say this: if they took that fight between Rand, Lanfear and Moiraine at the docks of Cairhein and gave us Moiraine surprise stabbing Lanfear with a sword, they have failed the books. That was a good scene, and it will be a crying shame if nothing like it makes it to the show.

This just seems like quite a leap to think this is meant to be that - the only thing in common is the two characters. It's not doing any of the same things and it's far too early to fill that role - that was OG Lanfears exit from the story, this is her introduction.

I'm not assuming that scene will still be in it because there's a lot of potential changes that could really block that scene from happening, but I doubt this scene is intended as a replacement for it and if it is cut.

[Poobah]

If that final scene is an allusion to anything I feel it's more like Moiraine ganking Be'lal. He was a complete nothing of a character and antagonist and is high on the list to not make the cut imo. 

 

[Arakasi]

Few points about the forsaken here I want to make, one more speculative and a couple tied to the current Lanfear and Ishamael storylines. 
 

1. I’m fairly sure they will not be doing the body switching they did in the books with Moridin, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, etc. It just doesn’t make sense in regards to the realities of tv shows and casting actors. I could see them doing it with just one that being Moridin but no more. It was a way overused trick in the books that just doesn’t translate to screen.

2. On the matter of Lanfear I just don’t think they’re going to follow the books. She was very important through book five and then came back as a neutered ineffective character. Tbh book Lanfear was disappointing most of the time anyway as she really accomplished very little. So i expect Lanfears story arc to be different.

3. For more speculative I suppose we must have talked about it last year but we know eight is the newer thirteen. Five forsaken got cut and I wonder who they are. Aginor, Balthamel, Belaal and Messana seem obvious. Are they giving Asmodeans teacher role to Logain? If so could be him. Could also be one of Rahvin or Sammael. Moghedien, Grandael I think have been confirmed by Rafe and I assume we’d keep Demandred and Semmirhage as well.

[Maltaran]

You could easily get rid of Sammael - him and Rahvin fit the same niche storywise just in different places, and Rahvin’s the obvious one to keep given the connection to Elayne. I think the only notable thing Sammael does in the books is run away to Shadar Logoth which leads to Rand meeting Moridin and their crossing the streams with balefire.

[Arakasi]

Yeah they could also keep Messana and cut Semirhage if they’re giving more of the seanchan stuff to Ishy and plan to lean more on white tower internal plots. I’m guessing the final split will be 4/4 through instead of the 8/5 from the books.

[Corvinus85]

46 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

You could easily get rid of Sammael - him and Rahvin fit the same niche storywise just in different places, and Rahvin’s the obvious one to keep given the connection to Elayne. I think the only notable thing Sammael does in the books is run away to Shadar Logoth which leads to Rand meeting Moridin and their crossing the streams with balefire.

The only other notable thing Sammael does is spread the Shaido around to cause chaos. But that is something that can be easily be given to Demandred. After all, book 6 had a prologue that included Demandred and we get the line "let the Lord of Chaos rule" and then we see no chaos from Demandred himself. 

I don't want Asmodean cut because so far I'm not a fan of the idea of gentled Logain being Rand's teacher, plus Rand should have a teacher can give him some points on the Age of Legends knowledge. And we definitely need one Forsaken at least to be killed by balefire, so anyone between Rahvin, Be'lal, or Asmodean.

22 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Yeah they could also keep Messana and cut Semirhage if they’re giving more of the seanchan stuff to Ishy and plan to lean more on white tower internal plots. I’m guessing the final split will be 4/4 through instead of the 8/5 from the books.

For the female Forsaken, it would be nice if one was present in the White Tower to cause chaos. Semirhage is too much of a horrifying psycho to not have her in the show, but maybe she could be the one in the Tower while Ishy continues to influence the Seanchan. I can also see Moghedien being the one in the Tower.

[Gaston de Foix]

On 9/8/2023 at 11:23 AM, David Selig said:

Really disappointing episode for me. After the very encouraging episodes last week this was a major step back. Too much attention to things I don't care about, in particular Alanna's warders and Lan's moping. Not enough Elayne. And I really disliked the ending.

  Reveal hidden contents

Moiraine sneaking out of nowhere and slitting the throat of Lanfear who somehow survived was just a major faceplam moment for me.

 

Spoiler

This.  It really felt like the scene needed some work to make the horror/risk to Rand believable.  I understand the dilemma of trying to shoot the scene so that Rand remained confused about Selene's motives. 

For an episode titled Daughter of the Night and intended to set up a major character, it didn't really bring the fear/awe factor. 

This is an awesome thread, btw.  Have learned so much about WoT (the series and the show) from reading your takes.  Maybe I should try to pick up the books sometime.  

[Gertrude]

There was speculation in S1 of who the Forsaken will be based on the statues in Stepin's room. There was one with a lute, so I think Asmodean is still around. I like the idea of Rand learning some basics from Logain, but not the practical side, thus making his deal with Lanfear more tempting. He knows there is so much for him to learn he can't get from anyone else.

I think the speculation was also that Sammael was in and Rahvin out, based on a short statue. (lol) Grandal and Modhedian were also pretty uniformly agreed on. Can't remember the rest or if there was a general consensus. Just going off book stuff, Demandred and Mesaana would round things out nicely. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

Yeah if going on uniqueness and interactions with the main characters the eight should be Ishamael, Lanfear, Grandael, Moghedien, Asmodean, Demandred, Rahvin and then one of Sammael/Semirhage/Messana depending on which storyline they focus on more.

[David Selig]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The only other notable thing Sammael does is spread the Shaido around to cause chaos. But that is something that can be easily be given to Demandred.

That's something that shouldn't be given to anyone IMO because the Shaido after Dumai's Wells are a complete waste of pages and the reason for the most boring plotline in the series.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

This just seems like quite a leap to think this is meant to be that - the only thing in common is the two characters. It's not doing any of the same things and it's far too early to fill that role - that was OG Lanfears exit from the story, this is her introduction.

I'm not assuming that scene will still be in it because there's a lot of potential changes that could really block that scene from happening, but I doubt this scene is intended as a replacement for it and if it is cut.

The two characters is not the only thing in common; we have, in both instances, Moiraine tackling Lanfear by surprise (without using the one power to attack, per se) and Lanfear seemingly ending up dead/missing. In both cases, Lanfear would get back. In both cases, Moiraine was directly protecting Rand from Lanfear (though we don't know what she was doing in the show, maybe bonding him as a warder or something). I'm not so sure the showrunners would include this scene if they also want to have the book one later. Also because of what Arakasi wrote.

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Few points about the forsaken here I want to make, one more speculative and a couple tied to the current Lanfear and Ishamael storylines. 
 

1. I’m fairly sure they will not be doing the body switching they did in the books with Moridin, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, etc. It just doesn’t make sense in regards to the realities of tv shows and casting actors. I could see them doing it with just one that being Moridin but no more. It was a way overused trick in the books that just doesn’t translate to screen.

2. On the matter of Lanfear I just don’t think they’re going to follow the books. She was very important through book five and then came back as a neutered ineffective character. Tbh book Lanfear was disappointing most of the time anyway as she really accomplished very little. So i expect Lanfears story arc to be different.

3. For more speculative I suppose we must have talked about it last year but we know eight is the newer thirteen. Five forsaken got cut and I wonder who they are. Aginor, Balthamel, Belaal and Messana seem obvious. Are they giving Asmodeans teacher role to Logain? If so could be him. Could also be one of Rahvin or Sammael. Moghedien, Grandael I think have been confirmed by Rafe and I assume we’d keep Demandred and Semmirhage as well.

I agree, the bodyswitching is likely out as they want to keep such actors as Fares-Fares (I assume, but he is great in the role and the way TV works I don't think they would actually want to change actors for multiple characters). I also think they may just keep Lanfear around, though maybe they will temporarily incapacitate her or capture her instead.

Asmodean is very likely in though, his statue (in the Stepin episode) was the one most clearly visible as belonging to a specific forsaken. He must be one of the 8 survivors. I guess Logain won't be able to help enough.

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Yeah if going on uniqueness and interactions with the main characters the eight should be Ishamael, Lanfear, Grandael, Moghedien, Asmodean, Demandred, Rahvin and then one of Sammael/Semirhage/Messana depending on which storyline they focus on more.

I think that the specialised Youtube channels (such as unravelling the pattern) came down on Ishamael, Lanfear, Asmodean, Graendal, Moghedien, Demandred, Semirhage and one out of Sammael/Rahvin (with Mesaana most likely cut, role to be taken over by Moghedien or Graendal). They could make a Sammael/Rahvin hybrid I suppose (though with the name of one of them).

Edited September 9, 2023 by Wouter

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

This just seems like quite a leap to think this is meant to be that - the only thing in common is the two characters. It's not doing any of the same things and it's far too early to fill that role - that was OG Lanfears exit from the story, this is her introduction.

The location, Cairhein, is also in common. As is Lanfear being left incapacitated as pointed out. Enough of this is identical that if they do bring the docks fight to the screen, it will feel repetitive. 

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm not assuming that scene will still be in it because there's a lot of potential changes that could really block that scene from happening, but I doubt this scene is intended as a replacement for it and if it is cut.

If it is not meant for a replacement, it is too similar in effect and composition. 

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Few points about the forsaken here I want to make, one more speculative and a couple tied to the current Lanfear and Ishamael storylines. 
 

1. I’m fairly sure they will not be doing the body switching they did in the books with Moridin, Lanfear, Aginor, Balthamel, etc. It just doesn’t make sense in regards to the realities of tv shows and casting actors. I could see them doing it with just one that being Moridin but no more. It was a way overused trick in the books that just doesn’t translate to screen.

2. On the matter of Lanfear I just don’t think they’re going to follow the books. She was very important through book five and then came back as a neutered ineffective character. Tbh book Lanfear was disappointing most of the time anyway as she really accomplished very little. So i expect Lanfears story arc to be different.

3. For more speculative I suppose we must have talked about it last year but we know eight is the newer thirteen. Five forsaken got cut and I wonder who they are. Aginor, Balthamel, Belaal and Messana seem obvious. Are they giving Asmodeans teacher role to Logain? If so could be him. Could also be one of Rahvin or Sammael. Moghedien, Grandael I think have been confirmed by Rafe and I assume we’d keep Demandred and Semmirhage as well.

I don't think Mesaana can be skipped. Semirhage has the lowest screentime and importance of the 4 female Forsaken, and Graendal too over her role eventually anyway, so I'd bet on her being cut, but her personality traits being distributed among some others.

Among the men, Aginor and Balthamel seen to be out. I'd bet they combine Be'lal and Sammael.

[karaddin]

7 hours ago, Arakasi said:

3. For more speculative I suppose we must have talked about it last year but we know eight is the newer thirteen. Five forsaken got cut and I wonder who they are. Aginor, Balthamel, Belaal and Messana seem obvious. Are they giving Asmodeans teacher role to Logain? If so could be him. Could also be one of Rahvin or Sammael. Moghedien, Grandael I think have been confirmed by Rafe and I assume we’d keep Demandred and Semmirhage as well.

Oh do we have something from Rafe that confirms the 8 number? I've had so many conversations about this with my wife and I think 8 is what we keep settling on as well lol.

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

 Lanfear seemingly ending up dead/missing. 

I really don't see these as remotely comparable, Rand and the audience might think she's dead for all of 20 seconds in the show. Moiraine doesn't, she immediately tells Rand she isn't and the audience immediately sees it's true - in terms of what they're doing it's more like one of them was teleported far enough away from the other to escape, not actually harming Lanfear.

Back to the Forsaken - I kinda hope if both Demandred and one of Rahvin/Sammael make the cut that one of them has changed motivation as well - it feels like half the male Forsaken's reason for falling in the books could be boiled down "Lew's Therin made me feel like a cuck" lol. With a sprinkling of "because I'm short" for Sammael.

[Arakasi]

There is the statues in season one. There was the thing this year where they needed 8 sisters to do X where that number also used to be thirteen. I think they’ve changed the magic number 13 to 8 for tv scale and scope.