Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[karaddin]

Yeah I'm perfectly open to my memory simply being faulty on the wastes front lol, but that expectation is part of the lens that I'm viewing this season with. Would be funny if it's wrong but makes it more enjoyable for me anyway.

Not sure what Lanfear might have been about to do, beyond it has to relate to her confession (however far that was going to go). She might have simply been revealing she could channel - maybe it was a sex weave lol.

I'm assuming they're being so heavy handed with Mat constantly losing at gambling so that the audience can realise there's something going on when he starts winning before he realises it himself.

I also really liked Min opening her eyes to Ishy with no viewings at all, great way to make him pop out and I'm assuming that's going to be something specific to just him not all forsaken.

On filler - I just don't find it a useful concept for this. Yes it's adaptation only content, but filler (as I'm familiar with it at least) is about killing time while waiting for the source material to get ahead so you don't run out of it. They're adding this not to fill time but because they think it adds to the version of the story they're trying to tell, or at worst because they need to come up with stuff for an actor to do during a period they aren't in much of the source material. I don't think the latter really applies, so either they're putting a lot of weight onto Lan and Moiraine's relationship or this is what they came up with to fix a mistake at the end of the first season with shielding/stilling Moiraine. I think it's at least partially setting up Rand's big mistake about thinking he needed to be hard and push people away to protect them - Moiraine is making the same mistake just with smaller stakes.

[Arakasi]

Loved the episode except for the warder part. It’s boring guys stop devoting episode time to it. It sucked last season it sucked here. Make warders fight and have some occasional stuff but stop devoting so much time to them. They’re boring, heck even book Lan was boring.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Arakasi

[Corvinus85]

Yeah, they are circling around what it means to be a Warder ad nauseum. 

By the way, I'm thinking Siuan's conspicuous absence has to do with Mazrim Taim. They dropped his name the last episode. It would be a reasonable in- world explanation for her absence.

I'm not liking the idea that someone who was severed from the OP can teach someone to channel. At best give advice but they should not be able to see weaves anymore. And how was Logain able to tell that Rand was as strong as he? In the book his Talent was to see ta'veren.

Did Ishy use the True Power to break the seal? It would be logical and his weave did look slightly different from OP weaves.

[Poobah]

I really enjoyed the episode. It's good to give Min more plot and character development, I guess her arc, much like the boys, is gonna be about learning to embrace her power rather than fear/flee from it which... I rather liked her as a character who was already well developed and mature at her introduction, in contrast to the bumbling teens, but I do appreciate that in media you need these things. The Lanfear stuff was well done. Having Moiraine interact a bit with her family makes sense - it ties the world together a good bit more, continues to emphasise the way they're going for 'agelessness' with the Ass Sedai, and slips in some lore about the bumpy fortunes of house Damodred and the political nature of Cairhien where these things are quick to change and ambitious nobles quickly rise and fall. The presumptuous way she turns up and assumes everyone is at her service is classic Aes Sedai behaviour and also classic driven Moiraine who disregards everything outside of her mission as unimportant and will burn any bridge necessary but also the way she clearly doesn't want to interact much and be there as little as possible is reflective of the Moiraine who actively ran away from Cairhienin politics, from her disreputable family name and all that came with it. 

Also I'm totally fine with Lanfear's survival, Ishamael gets absolutely murdered two books in a row by Rand - burned to a crisp at the end of EotW while Rand is also attacking his connection to the true power or the Dark One or whatever and he's hurt, madder than ever and a bit crispy but still very much alive, and then at the end of book 2 Rand stabs him in the heart which, again, is a mortal blow. The saa in the eyes was a great touch. 

Liandrin's reveal was a bit blunt. Hopefully they linger more on the betrayal aspect next episode. 

[SpaceChampion]

I think Mat is going to meet the Damodreds and discover Barthanes and Anvaere are both darkfriends, and conclude or be led to believe Moiraine is one too.  In this past episode how the dark prophesy was found made me wonder if Alanna will fear that Moiraine (and possibly Lan) are darkfriends too. 

[Myrddin]

Mat's just going to Cairihen so he can steal some fireworks.

I agree Min's role is odd. Having Ishy or even Liandrin directing her actions is so out of character. I do love having her and Mat as travel buddies, though.

In the books, when did Mat start becoming unbeatable in dice? After the Stone fell or before?  

[SpaceChampion]

3 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

In the books, when did Mat start becoming unbeatable in dice? After the Stone fell or before?  

Before.  He was healed after retrieving the Dagger and Horn in Tar Valon.  He went down to Tear to rescue the power trio from the Black Ajah while the Stone was falling to the Aiel.

Moiraine's healing him was too soon, or incomplete.  Or he'll be "reinfected" some time this season.

Edited September 8, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[David Selig]

Really disappointing episode for me. After the very encouraging episodes last week this was a major step back. Too much attention to things I don't care about, in particular Alanna's warders and Lan's moping. Not enough Elayne. And I really disliked the ending.

Spoiler

Moiraine sneaking out of nowhere and slitting the throat of Lanfear who somehow survived was just a major faceplam moment for me.

 

[fionwe1987]

36 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Mat's just going to Cairihen so he can steal some fireworks.

I agree Min's role is odd. Having Ishy or even Liandrin directing her actions is so out of character. I do love having her and Mat as travel buddies, though.

In the books, when did Mat start becoming unbeatable in dice? After the Stone fell or before?  

He got his luck right after his Healing in Tar Valon. Of course, he might have had his luck right from when he blew the Horn, but he was very sick after that, so no one could find out. 

30 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Really disappointing episode for me. After the very encouraging episodes last week this was a major step back. Too much attention to things I don't care about, in particular Alanna's warders and Lan's moping. Not enough Elayne. And I really disliked the ending.

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Moiraine sneaking out of nowhere and slitting the throat of Lanfear who somehow survived was just a major faceplam moment for me.

 

It's also bizarre Anvaere knew where Selene went. She makes it clear it was some random mountain, not a real family cabin, so how did Anvaere know? She had someone follow Lanfear and Rand, and Lanfear just didn't notice?

It's not that some explanation cannot be found. It's just that the show simply doesn't bother to show or tell any of this. 

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

He got his luck right after his Healing in Tar Valon. Of course, he might have had his luck right from when he blew the Horn, but he was very sick after that, so no one could find out. 

It's also bizarre Anvaere knew where Selene went. She makes it clear it was some random mountain, not a real family cabin, so how did Anvaere know? She had someone follow Lanfear and Rand, and Lanfear just didn't notice?

I never thought about Mat getting his luck from the Horn, but it is a trigger they could possibly use. Interesting. 

Also regarding Moiraine, this is where her and Lan working together would have been useful. Lan tracking Rand, very believable. Nyneave, sure. Moiraine ... um, no.

[JGP]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

He got his luck right after his Healing in Tar Valon. Of course, he might have had his luck right from when he blew the Horn, but he was very sick after that, so no one could find out. 

My memory of the books isn't the greatest, but I thought he got the Dark One's luck when he was smart mouthing those otherworld beings and accidentally struck a bargain? 

[Slurktan]

45 minutes ago, JGP said:

My memory of the books isn't the greatest, but I thought he got the Dark One's luck when he was smart mouthing those otherworld beings and accidentally struck a bargain? 

No he got it after being healed of the dagger in Tar Valon in TDR. He needed to get out of the city and had no money so being ta'averen got him money. After that it just kind of stuck, but just not as good as that one night. He hadn't been through either door yet.

EDIT: I really, really hope we get the scene where his luck breaks the fixed dice.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Slurktan

[Myrddin]

New clip from episode five up with Lan leading warder training: 

 

[UnplayableChar]

I'm just surprised how different in structure it is from The Great Hunt. You'd think TGH would be perfect adaptation material, since the main plot is like a zany chase sequence, perfect for Hollywood right? But there's been like two scenes from the actual hunt in four episodes. There's no real sense of tempo or direction.

Edited September 8, 2023 by UnplayableChar

[Corvinus85]

24 minutes ago, UnplayableChar said:

I'm just surprised how different in structure it is from The Great Hunt. You'd think TGH would be perfect adaptation material, since the main plot is like a zany chase sequence, perfect for Hollywood right? But there's been like two scenes from the actual hunt in four episodes. There's no real sense of tempo or direction.

To be fair, from the start they said they would pull stuff from other books in each season. Though I can't say I've seen much from TDR - only Mat leaving the Tower, but vastly changed from the book anyhow.

[Werthead]

The preview for the rest of the season shows at least one major TDR scene, slightly changed:

Spoiler

Perrin rescues Aviendha from a cage rather than Gaul and they take out a bunch of captors. How she got right across the continent from the Aiel Waste is a good question though.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Werthead

[Wouter]

20 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Something must have have happened to the actress who plays Siuan, because yeah, she should have been around by now. The silver lining though is that at least they could write something for Leane.

 

Siuan was in the trailer, she will speak to Rand in Cairhien. Where she has been hanging out in the meantime remains to be seen.

19 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Anyway, a mixed bag for me this week. I was really liking the ending until I didn't. Just ... what? 

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I liked how Lanfear was manipulating Rand and their whole interaction after the attack, and then Moiraine pops in and slits her throat? I don't ... no, I don't like that at all. She was shimmering just before the knife hit - I wonder what that was.

 

  Hide contents

So they did reveal Liandrin to the girls, huh? Interesting. I really thought they'd tie her more into the Tower politics but now she really can't be. 

Give me more Mat, please. More dicing, more fun, more adventures. Also, more Hopper, that is all. I agree that how they are depicting Perrin's communication is probably the best choice for this, but it's just okay. I'm hoping that do more than just that in the future because the visions are clunky.

Oh, and what is in Cairhien for Mat? Really don't know where this particular thread is going right now.

 

Yes, I was also liking the way Lanfear was manipulating Rand (no doubt she send that Fade herself) but the ending seemed way too sudden and out of nowhere.

Moiraine could conceivably have learned Rand was with Lanfear at the inn (she didn't hide her Crescent sign), but Anvaere's men would have needed to shadow Lanfear and Rand - without either noticing - in order for her to appear there just in the nick of time. I doubt anyone in Cairhien could tie that place in the mountains to Selene/Lanfear.

Forsaken being hard to kill may be acceptable, but no idea what was she doing with her channeling.

And Lanfear did all that ground work, only to become really impatient. She should have continued to lead Rand by the nose and get him to be more attached to her, she had come so far.

Having said that, a sneak attack out of nowhere on a Forsaken is Moiraine's thing in the books, too. But I guess her book attack on Lanfear is unlikely to be in the show as well (assuming it gets a season 4), as it would be repetitive after this moment.

I also wonder why Ishy wants Mat to go there...

[Cas Stark]

I watched all 4 episodes, so I guess I was wrong that I won't finish season 2.  I still think it's extremely weak, but I'm glad fans of the book series are enjoying it.  It certainly doesn't enrage me to the level of ROP Galadriel as an unhinged fuckwit, etc. etc. does.  A lot of the casting seems, not very good to me.  There are only a handful of actors who are GOT level. 

If everyone was killing it like Alvaro Morte [hitting just the right notes of scenery chewing], I would more easily overlook the choppy story and other issues.

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, UnplayableChar said:

I'm just surprised how different in structure it is from The Great Hunt. You'd think TGH would be perfect adaptation material, since the main plot is like a zany chase sequence, perfect for Hollywood right? But there's been like two scenes from the actual hunt in four episodes. There's no real sense of tempo or direction.

I think ultimately they know that they can't just adapt individual books but must look at the series as a whole if they want to turn it into a viable TV product. On the plus side they do have the finished series and the massive advantages that come with hindsight but on the minus side it's enormous and while Jordan had an end goal on mind he wasn't an extensive obsessive planner and just kinda ran with things so you have the early books which are almost aggressively episodic to the point of being repetitious and the later ones can be a tangled and bloated mess which nonetheless contain very important details, pieces of character development, etc. in places so you have to figure out how to smooth out this whole big mess. Obviously also there's no way any show in the current streaming climate gets 14 seasons so even if each individual book was structured in a way that made would make for good television they can't just do one book a season and thus they have to chop and merge and redirect things to ensure key moments are hit, characters arrive where they need to be at the right moments and so on but likely arrive at them in different ways while also getting them to introduce and develop key characters, concepts etc. I suspect that as the show moves along we'll get more of a sense of why some decisions were made as we see more of the structure they have planned out. I don't envy them, there's so much ground to cover to cut it down to a theoretical 6 or 7 season run which might be viable. 

It has to be an ensemble show with more focus split between more characters because you can't really have actors you hire for one scene this season because it's in the book and their character will be important later just hanging around doing nothing if you want to actually keep them available to shoot for next season or the one after where their character would do the next important thing that's in the books. You can't really have a cast of hundreds of named characters (budget aside most of the people I know can barely remember some even quite important characters when they were reading about them because of the sheer number of them) so the ones you choose to foreground need to fill multiple roles, get stuff to do, and be memorable to the audience which again necessitates screen time. 

They're also trying to set up a lot of stuff for later so it all fits together cohesively which is another reason why we have Alanna who's clearly also Myrelle and her warders getting a bunch of screen time because it accomplishes a ton of different things. Here are a few that come to mind: talking about the warder bond and how intimate it is important because it's so crucial to Rand and his psyche and like with some other stuff they need to find a way to vocalise a lot of this internal feeling stuff that's vital to the plot and character arcs; establishing Alanna's warders as likeable characters so when one dies the audience can feel that pain and understand why she goes off the rails (regular warders in the books are kinda background furniture that nobody gives a shit about); normalising polyamorous relationships in the show makes Rand's harem later seem less fucking weird/out there; showing more competent active Aes Sedai out and about doing shit helps solve the book issue of there being hundreds of Aes Sedai and they're 99% fucking useless, we do need to feel like these people are powerful and important not a bunch of jokes that they do kinda often feel like in the books; setting up Alanna as a likeable, sympathetic character massively ups the impact of her forcibly bonding Rand and all the connections they're making between the bind and sex/intimacy and marriage makes the sexual assault-like nature of what she does all the clearer for the less attentive viewers; talking about and reminding viewers about how bad it is for warders when their bondholder dies is vital because it and Alanna becomes a key plot point right at the end of the final book as his final potential Achilles heel... I could probably keep going but you see my point. Likewise all the stuff with Liandrin is doing a lot of setting up of various dominos. 

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Though I can't say I've seen much from TDR

I think Rand is doing a merger of his TGH and TDR stuff - off on his own running from and afraid of his role and power as the dragon, his absence from the first episode probably a nod to his absence from almost that entire book it happens a bit in TGH but it's repeated even more emphatically in TDR. The thing of messengers seeking out Moiraine bringing her news from all over is from the start of TDR too. 

[Arakasi]

If they want to get to the end they have to consolidate things even if something like TGH looks like it would make a logical season. I’m fairly sure next season will be TDR plus TSR probably ending with the proclaiming of Rand as the caracarn. The early books are more packed than the later so like 1.5 books per season for the first six or seven books and then finish the show off in another 2-3 seasons.