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[A True Kaniggit]

15 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 

 

Little Carmine was playing the long game. 

I could sneeze at Little Carmine and he would go running.
 

And I’m currently out of shape. 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

The fact that he was killed was all but confirmed by David Chase when he slipped up in an interview and called it a "death scene"

He was talking about an earlier iteration of his plans where he was thinking of reversing Tony's trip, taking him from Jersey to NY, where he'd get killed. But he dropped that idea.

No matter what people want to make of Chase's remarks, what's very plain is that the episode itself leaves Tony Soprano in a Schrödinger's Cat situation -- he's neither alive nor dead, his fate is ambiguous and unresolvable within the framework of the show itself. The show is done, and our knowledge of his fate ends there. 

[A True Kaniggit]

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was talking about an earlier iteration of his plans where he was thinking of reversing Tony's trip, taking him from Jersey to NY, where he'd get killed. But he dropped that idea.

No matter what people want to make of Chase's remarks, what's very plain is that the episode itself leaves Tony Soprano in a Schrödinger's Cat situation -- he's neither alive nor dead, his fate is ambiguous and unresolvable within the framework of the show itself. The show is done, and our knowledge of his fate ends there. 

As someone who just watched the episode, Schrodingers Cat is on Tony’s side. He protected aforementioned cat from Paulie. 
 

The science says Tony lives. 

[RumHam]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was talking about an earlier iteration of his plans where he was thinking of reversing Tony's trip, taking him from Jersey to NY, where he'd get killed. But he dropped that idea.

No matter what people want to make of Chase's remarks, what's very plain is that the episode itself leaves Tony Soprano in a Schrödinger's Cat situation -- he's neither alive nor dead, his fate is ambiguous and unresolvable within the framework of the show itself. The show is done, and our knowledge of his fate ends there. 

Right, but the fact that he seemed to realize he'd let something slip is telling. Also this bit:

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But two years before the finale of the legendary HBO series, Chase had a change of heart while taking a drive. "I saw a little restaurant. It was kind of like a shack that served breakfast," Chase said. "And for some reason I thought, ‘Tony should get it in a place like that.' Why? I don't know."

Personally I don't think "Tony was killed" is ambiguous at all. I mean it was at the time I was one of those people wondering if the cable went out. But the abrupt cut followed by a bit of silence is just such an odd ending, it had to mean something. Coupled with the earlier conversation with Bobby about how you don't hear it happen. Plus someone pointed out how the scene cuts to and from Tony's pov in a pattern, and the last time it should cut to his pov we get the blackness.

I would be interested to see the scenes they shot with Edie Falco for the prequel. I feel like they'd almost have to confirm he was dead.

[A True Kaniggit]

10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but the fact that he seemed to realize he'd let something slip is telling. Also this bit:

Personally I don't think "Tony was killed" is ambiguous at all. I mean it was at the time I was one of those people wondering if the cable went out. But the abrupt cut followed by a bit of silence is just such an odd ending, it had to mean something. Coupled with the earlier conversation with Bobby about how you don't hear it happen. Plus someone pointed out how the scene cuts to and from Tony's pov in a pattern, and the last time it should cut to his pov we get the blackness.

I would be interested to see the scenes they shot with Edie Falco for the prequel. I feel like they'd almost have to confirm he was dead.

Who is there to kill Tony at this point in the show?

Phil’s underling in New York already said he wanted peace. 
 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

5 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I could sneeze at Little Carmine and he would go running.
 

And I’m currently out of shape. 

Sure. That's why he'd hire a guy to do it. 

[Isis]

Got round to finishing Blood on Satan's Claw (1971) yesterday (originally watched the first half of it a few years ago) - another classic folk horror. It has a bit of a Wicker Man vibe to it, but it's set in (I want to say) the early 18th century so it is also reminscent of The Witch because any outspoken woman gets the 'she's a witch, drown her!' treatment. I found it to be reasonably coherent in narrative terms and I enjoyed the music/soundscape. It does actually have a supernatural entity in it, which (to my mind) makes it less scary. Definitely worth watching if you are a fan of British horror and/or folk horror.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Each segment in Twilight Zone: The Movie still holds up and Scatman Crothers is a treasure. Lithgow's physical acting is hilarious. It's tone and camp is different from the show, but it's still a lot of fun.

[Iskaral Pust]

14 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right, but the fact that he seemed to realize he'd let something slip is telling. Also this bit:

Personally I don't think "Tony was killed" is ambiguous at all. I mean it was at the time I was one of those people wondering if the cable went out. But the abrupt cut followed by a bit of silence is just such an odd ending, it had to mean something. Coupled with the earlier conversation with Bobby about how you don't hear it happen. Plus someone pointed out how the scene cuts to and from Tony's pov in a pattern, and the last time it should cut to his pov we get the blackness.

I would be interested to see the scenes they shot with Edie Falco for the prequel. I feel like they'd almost have to confirm he was dead.

We abandoned spoilers pretty quickly. I know it’s an old show but obviously some people are new to it.

The bolded text is most crucial to me.  Whether he dies is entirely communicated by the direction of the final scene: the camera focuses on the assassin as he arrives outside, enters (Meadow’s entrance is a slight background to him), and as he sits at the bar glancing over at Tony, and then when he moves out of Tony’s field of vision; the background music and shifting camera angle conveys a growing threat; for the first time ever we are shown Tony’s POV, with the camera angle flipping in and out of Tony’s POV — the camera had returned to Tony’s POV just before the screen goes black.  The whole scene conveys a threat that the viewer can see but Tony overlooks because he is too complacent that everything has resolved in his favor.  Plus the earlier foreshadowing that you never hear the shot that kills you — it’s a silent black screen.  This is all excellent direction, which is why Chase has been so annoyed that people keep asking what happened.  He set up the entire scene to convey this, but in a way that you have to read it through his direction alone because it’s not explicitly shown.

Who is not conveyed, although the successor to the NYC family would be the most obvious — since Tony stuck a gun in his face.  The whole message of the series, from the very first session with Dr. Melfi, is that the mafia’s world is shrinking (just remember the attempt to apply a protection racket to a chain coffee shop, or the NYC guy wandering out of Little Italy into Chinatown in just a few steps without realizing it).  The NYC family will try to absorb NJ because there just isn’t enough remaining to support two separate organizations.  Tony’s organization is very weak at this point, and one of his capo’s has just turned informer.

[Ran]

16 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right, but the fact that he seemed to realize he'd let something slip is telling.

He didn't let anything "slip" -- the two interviewing him pounced on him as if he said something that was telling and he told them "Fuck you" for wasting his time trying to read the tea leaves of everything he said when he remained adamant all this while that he wasn't going to actually say anything about the ending plot-wise

16 hours ago, RumHam said:

Also this bit

Same stuff. Things he had notions of at various points, but they are not to be taken to represent what is finally on the screen. If anything, he rejects anything as neat as "and then Tony gets whacked". In the infamous piece at Vox, which has its fair share of stretching to grasp Chase's meaning as saying definitively that Tony isn't dead, Chase is quoted like this:

Quote

I'm not guessing. When I asked Chase about the cut to black, he said that it is about Poe's poem "Dream Within a Dream." "What more can I say?

And that poem has a refrain that I think is telling:

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All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

So, to @Iskaral Pust's point, the actual breakdown of the scene is that the "cut to black" is at the wrong point if it means Tony's death. The sequence is straightforward: the door makes a sound of being opened, Tony looks up, we see what Tony sees as someone new enters. Except the final time, when we see Tony's near-contemporaneous look up as Meadow opens the door... the cut that should be our seeing what he was seeing in that moment is instead cut to black. If we wanted to be "in Tony's head" when the final shot he never saw coming came, what we should see is Meadow for a split second, and then black.

The fade to cut is not anyone's death. It's the moment before... whatever comes next. It's the end of the "dream within a dream." The fact that people insist again and again on trying to find finality when Chase deliberately aimed for an unresolved and unresolvable tension is what, it seems to me, gets his goat. He even originally wanted the cut to black to go for like three minutes before credits and music rolled, but HBO (probably wisely) said no to that. There's no impulse he could have revealed that could more underscore that the cut to black had a finality that was about the very existence of the show and the audience that watched it. 

(I really wonder why people keep bring up the talk with Bobby about death coming to you silently, you'll neve see it or whatever. It's an ironic conversation in retrospect because Bobby's death is anything but silent -- it's long and drawn out and very loud.)

[RumHam]

41 minutes ago, Ran said:

He didn't let anything "slip" -- the two interviewing him pounced on him as if he said something that was telling and he told them "Fuck you" for wasting his time trying to read the tea leaves of everything he said when he remained adamant all this while that he wasn't going to actually say anything about the ending plot-wise

That wasn't my read of it at the time, but it's been a while and my memory is not great. I do remember people reading the "fuck you" as more of a playful "you got me to admit he's dead!" thing. You could be right though. Even absent all interviews and outside stuff I still think it's pretty clear he died when you think about it for a bit.

I'm not sure what Vox piece you're referring to.

I get that in these instances he's talking about prior iterations of the ending he considered, but they're still clues. They still paint a picture that his ending for Tony was death.

Quote

If we wanted to be "in Tony's head" when the final shot he never saw coming came, what we should see is Meadow for a split second, and then black.

Wouldn't this all depend on the timing? That we should have gotten a couple frames of Meadow seems like a weak argument.

Quote

(I really wonder why people keep bring up the talk with Bobby about death coming to you silently, you'll neve see it or whatever. It's an ironic conversation in retrospect because Bobby's death is anything but silent -- it's long and drawn out and very loud.)

I don't think he says it always happens silently without you knowing. They obviously know people who died slowly and horribly. He's just saying that most of the time you probably don't realize what's happening, you're just gone. Which fits with what happens to Tony. They even have him flash back to the conversation when he's at his lowest point after Bobby's death.

[RhaenysBee]

I watched Look How They Run. Lovely sets and atmosphere, beautiful cinematography, great main characters superbly acted. Fun though at times slightly over the top editing, baffling but intriguing ending. Enjoyed it lot. 

And yes, I’m down the whodunnit rabbit hole, give me all the early 20th century whodunnits, i’m not bored yet. 

[DMC]

I think over the years Chase has pretty much confirmed Tony was killed while maintaining he'll never confirm it.  The most recent interview I recall was this one from last year (or 14 months ago now).   Here's an excerpt I think you're referring to upthread @RumHam:

Quote

The 2018 book The Sopranos Sessions was written by guys who wrote, at the time of the show, for the New Jersey Star-Ledger, the paper Tony always read, Matt Zoller Seitz and Alan Sepinwall. They interviewed you and asked you to talk about the June 10, 2007, series finale with of course, “Don’t Stop Believin'” and the famous cut to black. You said, “Well, I had that death scene in mind for years before.” A) Do you remember specifically when the ending first came to you? And, Was that a slip of the tongue?

Right. Was it?

I’m asking you.

No.

No?

Because the scene I had in my mind was not that scene. Nor did I think of cutting to black. I had a scene in which Tony comes back from a meeting in New York in his car. At the beginning of every show, he came from New York into New Jersey, and the last scene could be him coming from New Jersey back into New York for a meeting at which he was going to be killed.

And when did the alternative ending first occur to you? I’ve spoken with showrunners who said, “I knew at the beginning exactly how my show was going to end.” Or by season three or whatever. It sounds like when you were writing, you liked to stay six scripts ahead of where you were in the action.

Yeah. But I think I had this notion — I was driving on Ocean Park Boulevard near the airport and I saw a little restaurant. It was kind of like a shack that served breakfast. And for some reason I thought, “Tony should get it in a place like that.” Why? I don’t know. That was, like, two years before.

What did you make of the reaction to the finale? The whole episode was great, but people sort of fixated on …

Yeah, nobody said anything about the episode. No, it was all about the ending.

And was that annoying?

I had no idea it would cause that much — I mean, I forget what was going on in Iraq or someplace; London had been bombed! Nobody was talking about that; they were talking about The Sopranos. It was kind of incredible to me. But I had no idea it would be that much of an uproar. And was it annoying? What was annoying was how many people wanted to see Tony killed. That bothered me.

They wanted to see it. They wanted confirmation.

They wanted to know that Tony was killed. They wanted to see him go face-down in linguini, you know? And I just thought, “God, you watched this guy for seven years and I know he’s a criminal. But don’t tell me you don’t love him in some way, don’t tell me you’re not on his side in some way. And now you want to see him killed? You want justice done? You’re a criminal after watching this shit for seven years.” That bothered me, yeah.

I included the last couple exchanges because I think they're the most telling.  Chase clearly is still annoyed that everybody wanted him to show us some gruesome mob assassination as the finale to a character much of the country had a relationship with for nearly a decade, and he found that pretty gross.  I can certainly understand his sentiment.  But, I also think that's why he'll never confirm it - more out of spite than that it wasn't what he intended.

Anyway, I think the telling thing about Bobby's statement is it's what Tony thinks of when he finds out about the Blue Comet.  The original quote is in the final (mid)season premiere Soprano Home Movies.  Tony thinking of that again seems like pretty clear foreshadowing to me.

[Cas Stark]

31 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think over the years Chase has pretty much confirmed Tony was killed while maintaining he'll never confirm it.  The most recent interview I recall was this one from last year (or 14 months ago now).   Here's an excerpt I think you're referring to upthread @RumHam:

I included the last couple exchanges because I think they're the most telling.  Chase clearly is still annoyed that everybody wanted him to show us some gruesome mob assassination as the finale to a character much of the country had a relationship with for nearly a decade, and he found that pretty gross.  I can certainly understand his sentiment.  But, I also think that's why he'll never confirm it - more out of spite than that it wasn't what he intended.

Anyway, I think the telling thing about Bobby's statement is it's what Tony thinks of when he finds out about the Blue Comet.  The original quote is in the final (mid)season premiere Soprano Home Movies.  Tony thinking of that again seems like pretty clear foreshadowing to me.

Yes out of spite.  As one of the viewers who hated the ending, I didnt' necessarily want to 'see' Tony killed, I wanted a conclusive ending.  If you killed him, then kill him, on or off camera.  if you didn't kill him, and he slithered out of the noose one more time, then fine.  Don't be a fucking coward about it and then blame the audience for not appreciating your ambiguity.

I will say that the fact people still discuss it proves that on some level it wasn't such a bad artistic choice, but to me, it will always be a cop out

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Don't be a fucking coward about it and then blame the audience for not appreciating your ambiguity.

I will say that the fact people still discuss it proves that on some level it wasn't such a bad artistic choice, but to me, it will always be a cop out

To be clear I don't think Chase is being "cowardly."  I'm pretty much entirely referring to the public reaction to the finale and his subsequent responses to always being hounded by that question over the last fifteen years.  It clearly left a bad taste in his mouth, and I don't really blame him.

But yeah, it seemed to work out pretty damn well in the long run from at least a popularity/commercial pov.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

But yeah, it seemed to work out pretty damn well in the long run from at least a popularity/commercial pov.

For me, knowing the ending before even getting close to it so far does nothing to ruin the overall quality of the show. If Tony does get his head blown off, cutting a few seconds beforehand doesn't ruin it.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

For me, knowing the ending before even getting close to it so far does nothing to ruin the overall quality of the show. If Tony does get his head blown off, cutting a few seconds beforehand doesn't ruin it.

Me neither, but then I've never cared about spoilers at all.  For me, Tony undoubtedly was shot and killed at Holsten's.  If people have other interpretations, good for them.  But I agree with Ran on one point - that's when the show ended and it's a final conclusion...

Spoiler

Whodunnit?  Fuck if I know, but I don't really care.  As mentioned upthread, Tony was very weak at the moment and virtually every character still alive at that point had motive, means, & opportunity to hire a shooter.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

Glass Onion was entertaining in a scenery-chewing kind of way.  It was mostly silly-fun until the ending veered into silly-stupid, but entertaining all the way.

Jack Ryan S3 is pretty good as a self-contained spy caper.  The character has been suddenly leveled-up to near-Bond (but Krasinki’s aw-shucks drawling delivery is a bad fit for this character), and the plot holes are large and numerous (why would Czechia geographically be the primary focus of this Russian re-imperialism against NATO?), but it’s still a decent plot (kudos on the Russia focus) and story.

Following the spy theme, The Recruit is pretty good through ep6 (of 8).  It’s like a vastly, vastly improved Chuck.

I finally watched Breakfast At Tiffany’s.  Audrey Hepburn is immensely watchable as the original manic pixie dream-girl, but it does seem like this adaptation is a bit fluffier than Capote intended.  The dark undertones are there for sure as we see Holly deftly handling pushy clients and Doc describing his 14yr old bride, but she (and the movie) breezily dismiss these things.  I’m pretty sure Mickey Rooney’s yellow-face was offensive and pointless even in 1961.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

34 minutes ago, DMC said:

Me neither, but then I've never cared about spoilers at all.  For me, Tony undoubtedly was shot and killed at Holsten's.  If people have other interpretations, good for them.  But I agree with Ran on one point - that's when the show ended and it's a final conclusion...

  Reveal hidden contents

Whodunnit?  Fuck if I know, but I don't really care.  As mentioned upthread, Tony was very weak at the moment and virtually every character still alive at that point had motive, means, & opportunity to hire a shooter.

 

I haven't read a study on the subject in a while, but I recall overall people don't mind spoilers and that knowing the story helps improve the overall enjoyment. Well, except when this happens:

 

[Maithanet]

My wife and I have gotten several recommendations for Dark.  I am intrigued, but my wife is pretty averse to watching shows with significant violence against children.  Is that a dealbreaker here?  Is this on the level of say, True Detective Season 1?  Because if so, we'll probably give it a pass.