US politics: just for you

[Larry of the Lawn]

30 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

So when a defendant appeals.a sentence because they think they weren't punished too harshly, that's proper to let the appeal court say whether if the original sentence was correct, but the State making its case and thinking the sentence is lighter than what they thought it should be is terrible? If the Appeals Court agrees with the original sentence and the State tries to appeal things again after that, I'd agree with the point more...

Yes, for the same reason we have a bill of rights- because there's a massive power discrepancy between an individual and the state. The sentencing shouldn't be appealable by the state if it's within the specified range.    

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

They asked for a 25 year sentence.  They got an 18 year sentence.  What's going to happen in those 7 years that matters one way or another?  18 years is a long-ass time.  It's the amount of time we've decided it takes for a person to become legally responsible for themself.  

They should have asked for life, but they were probably certain they wouldn't get it. 

Quote

I'd be interested in hearing why a 25 year sentence is better for the world than an 18 year one.  

Because he won't serve anything close to 18 years and there's zero indication of contrition or remorse. His crimes meet the threshold of losing your freedom considering what his aims were. And sometimes it's right to make an example of someone. You know I'm someone who generally wants to go easy on people, but this is not a figure that deserves such treatment and that's before hearing what his ex-wife had to say about him. This is a dangerous individual. He wanted to overthrow the government, he beat his wife constantly and has shown no indication that he'll change. There's nothing to rehabilitate here. It's fair to assume once he gets out he'll be back to his old behavior. Rhodes deserves no quarter and should rot in jail. And it's important that people see that who might otherwise join similar movements. 

[Fragile Bird]

Holy shit, I just looked up US parol rules. Eligibility starts after 1/3 of the sentence is served. I thought it was 1/2 and checked to see if I was right.

That sonofagun with the 18 year sentence could be out in 6 years.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Holy shit, I just looked up US parol rules. Eligibility starts after 1/3 of the sentence is served. I thought it was 1/2 and checked to see if I was right.

That sonofagun with the 18 year sentence could be out in 6 years.

It's made worse by the fact he graduated from Yale law, the best school in the country. He will likely know every trick in the book to get out as quickly as possible, hence why a harsh sentence in prison is necessary.

And he will also have a lot of friends and/or sympatric figures on the staff. 

 

[LongRider]

Being up for parole does not mean that parole is automatically granted.   He may make parole as soon as he is eligible, or could never be granted parole. 
Hopefully, he won’t be granted parole. 

[LongRider]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

 

And he will also have a lot of friends and/or sympatric figures on the staff. 

 

Maybe, there are many variables involved; his behavior, who he associates with, is he violent?  It remains to be seen. 

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Maybe, there are many variables involved; his behavior, who he associates with, is he violent?  It remains to be seen. 

He's talks some good smack, anyway. Shame he didn't do anything a general prison population doesn't find especially heinous, him catching beats every other day would've been satisfying.

Edited July 14, 2023 by JGP

[Mlle. Zabzie]

8 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Lawyers with supreme court business paid Clarence Thomas aide via Venmo
Payments to Rajan Vasisht, an aide from 2019-21, underscore ties between the justice and lawyers who argue cases in front of him

Luxury trips and property deals: supreme court controversies

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/12/clarence-thomas-aide-venmo-payments-lawyers-supreme-court

 

Honestly, I’m not overly troubled by this and I would imagine that if you looked at other justices you would find similar.  Judicial clerks are like little families.  They have reunions and stay in touch, which, you know, makes sense?  What it looks like to me is that they pooled resources for a reunion Christmas party.  There is a LOT of troubling stuff around CT, but I think this is probably shoddy reporting and off base.  The article mentions this possibility at the end of the article but sort of dismisses it for no good reason other than it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Look, am dealing with this real time on the other side (having super conservative news outlets coming inbound on something) and the coms advice you get is not even to engage because you are going to be quoted out of context/ignored.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by Mlle. Zabzie

[ants]

26 minutes ago, JGP said:

…. Shame he didn't do anything a general prison population doesn't find especially heinous, him catching beats every other day would've been satisfying.

I find the enjoyment many get at the idea of prison being a brutal punishment where the incarcerated are beaten and/or raped on a regular basis pretty sickening. It is a shame it is such a common view in the west. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Maybe, there are many variables involved; his behavior, who he associates with, is he violent?  It remains to be seen. 

We know white nationalist groups have spent a long time trying to infiltrate the police. It's not a stretch to think they done so with the prison guards as well. It's just not as sexy to report on. 

7 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

They have reunions and stay in touch, which, you know, makes sense?

This is a bit of a problem though. It was a while back so forgive me for not remembering the exact details, but there was a study that found judges were more likely to rule in favor of clients represented by lawyers from their social networks. It could be as simple as just going to the same school even if they didn't know each other. And that's sorta been my long running complaint here for the last few months (and probably years tbh). The ethical standards are so low, but we've been told our whole lives judges are above all that. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, ants said:

I find the enjoyment many get at the idea of prison being a brutal punishment where the incarcerated are beaten and/or raped on a regular basis pretty sickening. It is a shame it is such a common view in the west. 

Some deserve the worst. Most should just be sent to a glorified version of rehab and therapy. 

[JGP]

The raping.. yeah no. The beats though, hell yeah. You run your mouth or step up... [spreads hands] 

 

generally, one can in Canada provided its consensual or no one gets horribly hurt

 

But... you try to overthrow a relatively democratic country, high on huffing White Supremacy, got many people hurt, a few killed, I'm going to be disappointed if you don't catch some hands no matter where you end up but at least in prison half your bullshit will get beat out of you. 

Guess I'm old school like that.

Edited July 14, 2023 by JGP

[ants]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Some deserve the worst. Most should just be sent to a glorified version of rehab and therapy. 

I would argue that any deserve what is being proposed. 
 

But even if they were, as a society being willing to provide that ‘worst’ let alone deriving pleasure from it is pretty sickening. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

We know white nationalist groups have spent a long time trying to infiltrate the police. It's not a stretch to think they done so with the prison guards as well. It's just not as sexy to report on. 

This is a bit of a problem though. It was a while back so forgive me for not remembering the exact details, but there was a study that found judges were more likely to rule in favor of clients represented by lawyers from their social networks. It could be as simple as just going to the same school even if they didn't know each other. And that's sorta been my long running complaint here for the last few months (and probably years tbh). The ethical standards are so low, but we've been told our whole lives judges are above all that. 

Judges aren’t robots.  They are people.  And to say that a judge cannot keep up with people he or she spent a TON of time with (and mentored) is like dumb. Also, why would anyone take the clerk jobs (which are essential) if they knew they could never socialize with their judge ever again?  I mean really?  I think you have an unrealistic set of expectations regarding judges.

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

We know white nationalist groups have spent a long time trying to infiltrate the police. It's not a stretch to think they done so with the prison guards as well. It's just not as sexy to report on

I'd like to say something, I worked in a California State Prision for 6 years as clerical person (free staff.)  I did not work directly with inmates, however, that doesn't mean I didn't learn anything or see anything.  Are some correctional officers very conservative and possible white supremists?  Yes of course they are.  Does this guarantee he will get paroled?  No.

However, every inmate has a record of their time there that is evaluated at parole time. Infractions, and if the inmate has committed any crimes.  Who they associate with inside and who their enemies are.  Victims can also have input, it would not surprise me if the officers that were injured in the J6 riots would testify, as well the families of the officers who died.  People were injured and died because of his crimes.  

Parole is not rubber stamp. 

We don't know how this man will serve his sentence, that remains to be seen.

[LongRider]

19 minutes ago, ants said:

I find the enjoyment many get at the idea of prison being a brutal punishment where the incarcerated are beaten and/or raped on a regular basis pretty sickening. It is a shame it is such a common view in the west. 

This is not my view; I do not advocate for violence or rape in prison. 

[The Anti-Targ]

3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Judges aren’t robots.  They are people.  And to say that a judge cannot keep up with people he or she spent a TON of time with (and mentored) is like dumb. Also, why would anyone take the clerk jobs (which are essential) if they knew they could never socialize with their judge ever again?  I mean really?  I think you have an unrealistic set of expectations regarding judges.

But that's not the point. The point is, if you are a judge and your social circle includes a lawyer who has a case on your docket then you should recuse yourself because of conflict of interest. But also, yes for the time someone is a judge they need to be pretty careful about their social connections with people in the legal profession they might be seeing in court.

Judges are indeed people, not robots and it is clear most people have biases that they cannot set aside however much they claim they can. It's exactly why conflict of interest rules exist. The system needs to minimise to the greatest extent possible the influence of bias on decisions that have massive impacts on the lives of the accused and the victims / plaintiffs and defendants.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, ants said:

I would argue that any deserve what is being proposed. 
 

But even if they were, as a society being willing to provide that ‘worst’ let alone deriving pleasure from it is pretty sickening. 

The pleasure part is weird 99.99% of the time, but I'm okay with Nassar getting shanked as an example. 

11 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Judges aren’t robots.  They are people.  And to say that a judge cannot keep up with people he or she spent a TON of time with (and mentored) is like dumb. Also, why would anyone take the clerk jobs (which are essential) if they knew they could never socialize with their judge ever again?  I mean really?  I think you have an unrealistic set of expectations regarding judges.

Yes, they're people, that's the point. However they've always sold themselves as being better than average when the truth is they're flawed like everyone else. So let's dispel that myth once and for all. We now know two of the nine Justices are corrupt. The most likely scenario is that some of the others are as well and I'm sure many of their current and former clerks are too. Instead of shrugging at that we need to demand a total overhaul of the system. It's the same problem with legislators at every level. The assumption on their part which has been proven correct is that people typically just complain about it, but in the end do nothing. At some point this has to stop. A bad culture just leads to more bad behavior, especially if there's the belief of impunity. Why do you think cops have sucked forever, for example? 

17 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Parole is not rubber stamp. 

We don't know how this man will serve his sentence, that remains to be seen.

Which is fair. My point was he knows the system well and assuming he avoids any problems he probably will not serve anywhere near what he was sentenced. 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Judges are people, and Thomas (as well as his buddy Alito) is an unscrupulous dillweed who shouldnt be given the benefit of doubt until he shows otherwise. Both statements can be true at the same time. 

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Holy shit, I just looked up US parol rules. Eligibility starts after 1/3 of the sentence is served. I thought it was 1/2 and checked to see if I was right.

That sonofagun with the 18 year sentence could be out in 6 years.

So its exactly the same as Canadian parole rules. And if he truly is rehabilitated in 6 years, then I dont see the problem. But have no fear, the US parole system is not particularly generous to the prison population, and the board is pretty overworked having to make decisions on hundreds of cases a week. There is a good chance he'll serve out his sentence. Meanwhile, the parole system continues to overlook older inmates who have aged out of the crime they were convicted for.

[karaddin]

38 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

But that's not the point. The point is, if you are a judge and your social circle includes a lawyer who has a case on your docket then you should recuse yourself because of conflict of interest. But also, yes for the time someone is a judge they need to be pretty careful about their social connections with people in the legal profession they might be seeing in court.

Judges are indeed people, not robots and it is clear most people have biases that they cannot set aside however much they claim they can. It's exactly why conflict of interest rules exist. The system needs to minimise to the greatest extent possible the influence of bias on decisions that have massive impacts on the lives of the accused and the victims / plaintiffs and defendants.

Yeah 100% my perspective on this as well. I understand where you're coming from Zabz but I just feel like you don't expect enough from the people invested with enormous trust and responsibility. Taking the job as a judge isn't a neutral outcome, and accepting higher ethical requirements are part of the bargain - or at least should be. And that's only more true for those at the top.

I'll grant that it's a complicated problem however, part of the issue is that the SCOTUS sits as the full bench so any judge that recuse themselves leaves an absence in the court. I think this is an area that would benefit from the sort of court reform I've advocated for - if there were say 18 SCOTUS justices that were randomly chosen from to form the 9 on the bench for a given case then there is plenty of tolerance to handle needing to replace one of them due to conflict of interest.

Uncertainty around which justices will even be hearing a given case also reduces motivation to try compromise any particular justice so it also would grant them more security around trusting their personal connections.

Judges are people, and the system should be working around that fact rather than expecting them to magically be above their humanity.