Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Jackson, you’re really cluterung up the threadz

Yeah, it kills your imagination that Ukrainians are desperate to die fighting Russians and plugs a hole into your BS narrative.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ukrainians are dying in mass according to these updates. Not that you care, as long as it helps the west geopolitically.

Er, no. Half my ancestry comes from Russia and other former Soviet states. So I do care and I'm not all that interested in some form of Western supremacy. 

What I care about is a rebuilt Ukraine and a free Russia. That's not going to happen until the former can retake their sovereign territory and the latter throws their current leadership into the sea. Calling for a ceasefire is not peace, it's a delay so Russia can regroup and commit more war crimes down the road. Regime change is absolutely necessary and that's not going to hurt Russia. It will very much help so long as good people are put in charge instead of the current war criminals. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, it kills your imagination that Ukrainians are desperate to die fighting Russians and plugs a hole into your BS narrative.

Jackson, we know how much you love Stalin and want to resurrect the image of that horrible human being… but it isn’t working.

[Varysblackfyre321]

34 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I disagreed only in that I didn’t think it would work.

So you’re pro-war when you think you can win and anti-war when you’re opponents start winning.

[butterweedstrover]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Er, no. Half my ancestry comes from Russia and other former Soviet states. So I do care and I'm not all that interested in some form of Western supremacy. 

What I care about is a rebuilt Ukraine and a free Russia. That's not going to happen until the former can retake their sovereign territory and the latter throws their current leadership into the sea. Calling for a ceasefire is not peace, it's a delay so Russia can regroup and commit more war crimes down the road. Regime change is absolutely necessary and that's not going to hurt Russia. It will very much help so long as good people are put in charge instead of the current war criminals. 

A new regime has to be better than the old, and your dream of a pliant liberal democracy will be the end of Russia. They have a right to defend themselves from western aggression and remain an independent geopolitical unit. 
 

Now if the only ending you see fit is a military take over of Crimea, Ukrainian nationalists marching on Donetsk, and sending Prigozhin, Putin, Girkin, and Lukashenko to The Hague for prosecution, then with all so respect to your ancestors, you can imagine why not all are excited to give up and let you roll over them.

[butterweedstrover]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you’re pro-war when you think you can win and anti-war when you’re opponents start winning.

Same with you and everyone else.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

A new regime has to be better than the old, and your dream of a pliant liberal democracy will be the end of Russia. They have a right to defend themselves from western aggression and remain an independent geopolitical unit. 

It's pretty hard for it to get worse than now, wouldn't you admit? And they're not defending themselves, they're the aggressor that fell flat on their face. 

And they're not independent. China owns them now, just with soft power instead of hard. The invasion has drastically weakened Russia's global standing and also probably wrecked a generation because of the lives lost and the money they've set on fire. There's no one to blame besides them. This will be remembered as an all time military failure and it's not the West's fault. 

Quote

Now if the only ending you see fit is a military take over of Crimea, Ukrainian nationalists marching on Donetsk, and sending Prigozhin, Putin, Girkin, and Lukashenko to The Hague for prosecution, then with all so respect to your ancestors, you can imagine why not all are excited to give up and let you roll over them.

Pretty sure all my ancestors would sign up for that in a heartbeat. And it's not giving up and rolling over, it's called reforming a corrupt regime that brutalizes its citizens so a few can horde all the wealth. Russia is a very poorly run country. It has been for decades. So you have a choice, keep doing the same thing or try something new. No one is demanding the culture has to radically change, but the government absolutely does, especially if they care about their people. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

26 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They have a right to defend themselves from western aggression and remain an independent geopolitical unit. 

Not by opposing the West directly… but by invading Ukraine… 

Jackson, you’ve got some strange ideas.

[Varysblackfyre321]

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Same with you and everyone else.

So you’re attack of people being in favor of helping Ukraine defend itself as “pro-war” was entirely vapid.

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's pretty hard for it to get worse than now, wouldn't you admit? And they're not defending themselves, they're the aggressor that fell flat on their face.  
 

They are seeing as the end goal of the west is the destruction of the Russian state. 

If they let NATO have its way in Ukraine by militarily seizing the Black Sea fleet, sending banderites to march on Donetsk were all ‘collaborators’ (everyone) are executed, arresting the entire Russian establishment, demilitarizing the state, and having western back NGO construct a new government (like in Kiev 2014) then you will wish this mafia was back remember. 
 

Without geopolitical independence, a liberal democracy has no use of these territories holding under one city, Moscow will turn into a backwater, and Russia will be gone.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And they're not independent. China owns them now, just with soft power instead of hard. The invasion has drastically weakened Russia's global standing and also probably wrecked a generation because of the lives lost and the money they've set on fire. There's no one to blame besides them. This will be remembered as an all time military failure and it's not the West's fault.  
 

Russia is not owned by China anymore than China was owned by Russia back in 1949. During the Soviet era China was the junior partner but they never bowed to Moscow. The same is true today only vice versa. 
 

Why? Because a Russian empire has geopolitical interests outside of what China wants. It needs influence in the caucuses and the orthodox world to maintain Moscow’s predominance. 
 

China and Russia share an enemy, that is all. 
 

But what about in your dream, where Russia collapses. You want a liberal democracy that joins NATO and shares the same security interests as the ‘collective west’. In that world the territory of Rus might as well become a bunch of small NATO members rather than one big one since it’s size is no longer required to compete with the west.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Pretty sure all my ancestors would sign up for that in a heartbeat.   
 

Unless they were Ukrainian nationalists or Bolsheviks, I doubt they would.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And it's not giving up and rolling over, it's called reforming a corrupt regime

A corrupt regime created by western reformists. The way to kick out the mafia is not to give power to those who created them, but to look into Russia’s past for a true patriot. 
 

Liberal democracy and Russia do not mix. But that doesn’t mean the alternative has to be corruption. There is a third way.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 that brutalizes its citizens so a few can horde all the wealth.  
 

They did this in the 90s under western supervision. A western dominated Russia will not care if Moscow is poor, and that is what losing this war will lead to. I’m not saying we should rally behind Putin, this war has already ended. 
 

During the collapse of the Ottomans the Turkish people didn’t look to the allied occupying forces (NATO) or the Greek invaders (Ukraine) but towards their own military/political brass to replace both the corrupt internal Ottoman system and the external foreign threat.

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Russia is a very poorly run country. It has been for decades. So you have a choice, keep doing the same thing or try something new. No one is demanding the culture has to radically change, but the government absolutely does, especially if they care about their pe

Well, part of that comes with standing up to a larger power. But somehow these drunks always find a way to get up again.

[butterweedstrover]

6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So your attack of people being in favor of helping Ukraine defend itself as “pro-war” was entirely vapid.

Only in the sense that the idea of someone being anti-war is a joke. Now if you want to live up to that title now would be the time. 

Show some principles.

Edited July 10, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Zorral]

Somehow Africa is always being left out of this pretense of whatever it is.  Not to mention the racist bigotry of continual reference to banderites.

The first time Ukraine was called Ukraine was in the 12th century.  Nobody talked about russia then.

Now, suddenly this chatbot is invoking Prigozhin for some reason as a good guy over putin.

There is NO POINT TO these endless screed that are incoherent, contradictory, ignorant, projective and just bull shit.  There is no humanitarian goal by the bot either, which might possibly give cover, but there isn't.

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Somehow Africa is always being left out of this pretense of whatever it is.  Not to mention the racist bigotry of continual reference to banderites.

The first time Ukraine was called Ukraine was in the 12th century.  Nobody talked about russia then.

Now, suddenly this chatbot is invoking Prigozhin for some reason as a good guy over putin.

There is NO POINT TO these endless screed that are incoherent, contradictory, ignorant, projective and just bull shit.  There is no humanitarian goal by the bot either, which might possibly give cover, but there isn't.

Excuse me, I’m sitting at the balcony in the Met Opera for a performance of swan lake by the American Ballet Theater. 
 

As I ready to enjoy the culture you seem to want banned and ultimately destroyed, might I remind you Russia was a term created by Catherine the Great. To make RUS sound more European. Rus became Russia.
 

It means Rus. Ukraine is the borderlands of Rus. Now tell me Ukraine came before Rus.

[Week]

*checks thread*

I see Stalingrad is still going on. Or maybe I should say Bakhmut.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Week

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Excuse me, I’m sitting at the balcony in the Met Opera for a performance of swan lake by the American Ballet Theater. 
 

As I ready to enjoy the culture you seem to want banned and ultimately destroyed, might I remind you Russia was a term created by Catherine the Great. To make RUS sound more European. Rus became Russia.
 

It means Rus. Ukraine is the borderlands of Rus. Now tell me Ukraine came before Rus.

Yeah, this hardon for ballet remains the best thing ever. 

Lost is apparently any irony that said ballet watching isn't in Russia and appears to still exist. Seems to me that ballet will be fine and has already migrated away to somewhere better. The best ballet dancers aren't from Russia. The best composers aren't either. 

What does Russia have that's worth taking any more? What culture do they have left that Disney can plunder? I guess they can export their wussification of forgiving traitors for armed rebellion. That's something different.

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Yeah, this hardon for ballet remains the best thing ever. 

Lost is apparently any irony that said ballet watching isn't in Russia and appears to still exist. Seems to me that ballet will be fine and has already migrated away to somewhere better. The best ballet dancers aren't from Russia. The best composers aren't either. 

What does Russia have that's worth taking any more? What culture do they have left that Disney can plunder? I guess they can export their wussification of forgiving traitors for armed rebellion. That's something different.

The greatest ballet school is in Saint Petersburg. Yes Russia does not rank well anymore, but that is because you ban them from competing.  
 

Even this American reproduction seems like a last hurrah as everything Russian that can’t be rebranded as Ukrainian is going the wayside of “supporting genocide”.
 

My close Russian friend, a wealthy woman, has an entire family of Ballet dancers. This is not a fancy, it is a way of life. 

So you see, Zorral was engaged in Ukrainian nationalistic revisionism. That Ukraine is the original Slavic state and Russia is a mongol pretender. They may not know it, but they play into Banderite propaganda that is at the forefront of the government in Kiev. 
 

Now hush, the show begins.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

They are seeing as the end goal of the west is the destruction of the Russian state. 

If they let NATO have its way in Ukraine by militarily seizing the Black Sea fleet, sending banderites to march on Donetsk were all ‘collaborators’ (everyone) are executed, arresting the entire Russian establishment, demilitarizing the state, and having western back NGO construct a new government (like in Kiev 2014) then you will wish this mafia was back remember. 
 

Without geopolitical independence, a liberal democracy has no use of these territories holding under one city, Moscow will turn into a backwater, and Russia will be gone.

Russia is not owned by China anymore than China was owned by Russia back in 1949. During the Soviet era China was the junior partner but they never bowed to Moscow. The same is true today only vice versa. 
 

Why? Because a Russian empire has geopolitical interests outside of what China wants. It needs influence in the caucuses and the orthodox world to maintain Moscow’s predominance. 
 

China and Russia share an enemy, that is all. 
 

But what about in your dream, where Russia collapses. You want a liberal democracy that joins NATO and shares the same security interests as the ‘collective west’. In that world the territory of Rus might as well become a bunch of small NATO members rather than one big one since it’s size is no longer required to compete with the west.

Unless they were Ukrainian nationalists or Bolsheviks, I doubt they would.

A corrupt regime created by western reformists. The way to kick out the mafia is not to give power to those who created them, but to look into Russia’s past for a true patriot. 
 

Liberal democracy and Russia do not mix. But that doesn’t mean the alternative has to be corruption. There is a third way.

They did this in the 90s under western supervision. A western dominated Russia will not care if Moscow is poor, and that is what losing this war will lead to. I’m not saying we should rally behind Putin, this war has already ended. 
 

During the collapse of the Ottomans the Turkish people didn’t look to the allied occupying forces (NATO) or the Greek invaders (Ukraine) but towards their own military/political brass to replace both the corrupt internal Ottoman system and the external foreign threat.

Well, part of that comes with standing up to a larger power. But somehow these drunks always find a way to get up again.

This post is one long fever dream.

Again, the West doesn't want to destroy Russia, it wants it to be a functioning state mostly so we can do business with it and not have to worry about war. It's the projection from the Russian perspective that believes the West wants to conquer it and/or change their culture. The truth is many Western leaders probably don't care all that much about Russian culture so long as it's stable and not run by criminals. And the West did not make Putin invade a country. He did so under false pretenses because he has some dream of recreating the former USSR despite the citizens of other countries telling him to fuck off and die. This is his doing. Blaming others just makes you look dumb. 

And yes, China does kind of own Russia now because Xi could fly to Moscow, slap Putin in the face and both know the latter couldn't do a damn thing about it.  

[Zorral]

45 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

. Now tell me Ukraine came before Rus.

I do because history does.  Catherine the Great comes long after the 12th century.  Maybe you can count on your fingers or something. Or just keep being silly and foolish?  If that's you choice, that's your choice.  Blow some kisses Prigozhin's way, or Putin's, or whichever psychopath warmonger corrupt plunderer you prefer at any moment.

There's a lot of great art going on this week.  Lot of it Black.  It has not escaped notice that there has been no expression here of russia's atrocities all over Africa. That you are sitting in 

You may have noticed the dress rehearsal you are supposedly seeing of Swan Lake at the Met has no russians dancing.  You also seem to have missed how sexually exploited the Mariinski dancers were and are, and how oppressed.  I love ballet and I have its history down quite solidly (which, silly, the roots and productions go back much further than Russia -- try Spain, Italy, France). Your attempts to pull culture whatever the eff you think you are doing are pathetic.

 

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The greatest ballet school is in Saint Petersburg. Yes Russia does not rank well anymore, but that is because you ban them from competing.  
 

Even this American reproduction seems like a last hurrah as everything Russian that can’t be rebranded as Ukrainian is going the wayside of “supporting genocide”.

Maybe Russia should spend less money on their shitty military and more money on the Ballet then? 

And yes, I personally famously banned the

...uh...professional ballet competitions that are so influential. You know the ones, at the ballet olympics. 

That said, no one who knows ballet thinks that st petersburg's school is the best. It hasnt been that way for 40 years. Only deluded uncultural homers think that. 

 

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ny close Russian friend, a wealthy woman, has an entire family of Ballet dancers. This is not a fancy, it is a way of life. 

Yes, and it is the west's goal to wipe them out personally. We all hate ballet. They must be destroyed. 

I mean seriously - who are you arguing with? No one cares about ballet one way or another? Is your thesis seriously that unless Russia can conquer other countries nearby ballet will cease to exist - and that somehow people dancing in tights and padded jocks justifies millions of people dying? I mean, I know that's what you're saying but I want to make sure that we are on the same page and have you say it publicly.

Because the casus belli of destroying Mexico to save Cracker Barrel and square dancing seems much stronger an argument to me.

 

[Week]

Why does anyone think this bad faith artist is going to acknowledge one iota of a point?