The Winter King

[Heartofice]

8 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

I don’t get how people get pissed off by films like Gods of Egypt and Exodus for white washing and yet clamour for the black washing of shit like this. I mean it’s still racism if it’s the other way round as well, unless you’re specifically trying to make an alt history show like Bridgeton or a stylised musical like Hamilton.

It really depends on the show / movie.  I think something like The Great is an example where it is making no real pretence of historical accuracy is open about that, almost every creative choice on the show lets you know that it's not trying to show you events as they happened. Therefore having a bunch of different races in Russia at the time isn't too jarring. 

Potentially the same with something like King Arthur, who isn't even a real person, or Merlin who is a magic guy! But at the same time this show has that gritty realism look that is trying to make you think these things actually happened in some way, so that might also be jarring. 

My main worry about something like this is that Last Kingdom stopped being fun at some point, and I've always been bothered by the young modern looking actors and haircuts in these shows, where everyone looks like a drama student or model. 

Plus even from the small clips in the trailer the fighting looks pretty dodgy.

[Mosi Mynn]

40 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Big fan of the books, started book 1 while in Glasgow airport waitong for first leg of flight to Chile; by time I landed in Chile, I was onto book 2.

Not too fussed by trailer, I’d expect them to focus on Arthur as non-book rewders wont know pr care who Derfel is

That's one of the best things about the books, though: getting a different perspective on Arthur.

Cornwell was clever in building up the myth of Arthur before we actually meet him - if they are as clever, the creators of this adaptation will do the same thing.  We and Derfel hear so much about Arthur before we meet him.  We get everyone's opinions of him, hear about his achievements, see the hope he inspires in the Brits (well, the Dumnonians, at least), and the fear in his enemies.  And his entrance into the story (yes, probably a deliberate PR stunt, but effective and necessary) always makes me grin - it should be a punch the air moment.  The trailer did not look as though it had many punch the air moments.

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

True and in a sensible way. But it's highly unlikely that a black man would have been a Celtic druid. 

Why him less than Sir Sagramore?

[Corvinus85]

16 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Why him less than Sir Sagramore?

Sagramor is a warrior and follower of the cult of Mithras. He is a veteran of the Roman army. Therefore it is more reasonable for him to be from somewhere else in the Roman Empire. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Corvinus85

[James Arryn]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Sagramor is a warrior and follower of the cult of Mithras. He is a veteran of the Roman army. Therefore it is more reasonable for him to be from somewhere else in the Roman Empire. 

I’m thinking if BC can rework it one way it can be worked the other; the Romans were in Britain for much longer than the US has been a country. How odd is it to see an immigrant adopt a native religion, possibly in the family for generations? And this is in a society with religious fluidity so different from the modern monotheistic world as to be incomparable. Many people were several religions at once, just as one example. 
 

edit: meant to say generations…centuries works too but unnecessarily expansive. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by James Arryn

[Zorral]

11 hours ago, JGP said:

a bit shit deliberately,

Good grief, nobody puts in the time and trouble to deliberately make their project look bad!  

$$$$$$$$There's no reason in the entertainment biz for that, and no place for it.  Too much at $take!$$$$$$$$$

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I’m thinking if BC can rework it one way it can be worked the other; the Romans were in Britain for much longer than the US has been a country. How odd is it to see an immigrant adopt a native religion, possibly in the family for generations? And this is in a society with religious fluidity so different from the modern monotheistic world as to be incomparable. Many people were several religions at once, just as one example. 
 

edit: meant to say generations…centuries works too but unnecessarily expansive. 

The Romans did their best to suppress the druids in the lands they conquered. Of course, since not all of all Britain was conquered, they were only partially successful, unlike in Gaul. So the chances of an immigrant adopting this particular native religion are much lower compared to bringing another religion with him. I think it would have been more realistic to see a Christian priest or bishop played by a black actor (or more).

In the end, after watching the trailer I am really bothered by the apparent direction of the story's focus (too much direct Arthur, not enough Derfel) and the bland costumes. Wow they are bland.

[JGP]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Good grief, nobody puts in the time and trouble to deliberately make their project look bad!  

$$$$$$$$There's no reason in the entertainment biz for that, and no place for it.  Too much at $take!$$$$$$$$$

Principle filming wrapped 5 months ago. If it's not an under promise/over deliver, tough to think of  another reason for the teaser to wiff so badly. Doesn't bode well. :/

[Zorral]

Well, ya, it looks bad, because it almost certainly is bad. It's bad because they didn't budget better and the show runners don't understand this sort of thing.  They thought: Vikings! Huge! The Last Kingdom! Huge! Cornwell -- the Sharpes, huge!  Let's go! 

It takes something like the BBC to do this sort of thing right, partly because it takes time, quite a lot of time, to move decently from development into actual production. And the production costs quite a bit.

Still, that should have been OK here -- locations in the UK -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Winter_King_(TV_series)#Filming

Maybe it isn't going to be bad per se -- just another Last Kingdom with different names for the characters?  Derfel the knowing skeptic, cunning, brilliant warrior raised outside his birth culture  instead of Uhtred the knowing skeptic, cunning, brilliant warrior raised outside his birth culture?

Edited July 18, 2023 by Zorral

[Mosi Mynn]

8 hours ago, Zorral said:

Maybe it isn't going to be bad per se -- just another Last Kingdom with different names for the characters?  Derfel the knowing skeptic, cunning, brilliant warrior raised outside his birth culture  instead of Uhtred the knowing skeptic, cunning, brilliant warrior raised outside his birth culture?

Oh noooooo!  Derfel is not like Uhtred!

[Which Tyler]

8 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well, ya, it looks bad, because it almost certainly is bad. It's bad because they didn't budget better and the show runners don't understand this sort of thing.  They thought: Vikings! Huge! The Last Kingdom! Huge! Cornwell -- the Sharpes, huge!  Let's go! 

It takes something like the BBC to do this sort of thing right, partly because it takes time, quite a lot of time, to move decently from development into actual production. And the production costs quite a bit.

Bad Wolf have no such excuses though; they've done plenty, and they've done high quality.

[Mosi Mynn]

It's such a shame it looks so generic.

The source material allows them to do a different take on an oft-told tale.  They could focus on the actual Winter King,

Spoiler

Mordred

, and draw people in that way.

They imply that Arthur is the titular King, but in The Warlord Chronicles,

Spoiler

Arthur is never a King

.

[Springwatch]

I'm not a an expert on the genre, but I liked the looks of the trailer. On the downside, there's zero sense of character in it - which is probably to be expected in a tiny trailer, but the books' characterisations are huge fun, and tbh, the shock value of just how wicked Arthur's people can be. Maybe, probably, all that is going to be lost, and replaced with a simpler goodies versus badies tale. Hope not.

[Werthead]

Wrong post

Edited August 11, 2023 by Werthead

[Corvinus85]

Has anyone watched the released episodes for this? It's advertised as a MGM+ series, but at least the first 2 episodes are available on Prime. I watched the first episode.

It's about as meh as I expected. I knew they had to make changes to the book mainly because of how much of the book is narrated, but I don't think I like most of them.

Spoiler

Caer Cadarn looks good, but Ynys Wydryn which the show simply calls Avalon, doesn't. They couldn't find a hill for filming location? And they simply call Ban's kingdom Gaul. smh

The beats of the story are mostly there, like Arthur getting exiled for the older Mordred's death, and Derfel loving Nimue, but how things are shown and tied together isn't that great. 

The writers must have felt the need to give Derfel a personal reason to idolize Arthur, by having Arthur, not Merlin, rescue him from the death pit as a child. Uther is a bigger piece of shit than even in the book. There is way too much Merlin. The mysteries and ambiguity about magic that the book had are gone - the show pretty much gave Merlin magic powers to see the future by touching people, and the gods are clearly present through visions. But they haven't bothered much with ceremonies and mysticism - Mordred's birth ritual was pretty much non-existent.

The show is clearly made for modern sensibilities, though it does have brutality, in the sense of people being murderous assholes, but not really in the sense of people's beliefs and traditions (at least not yet). I don't know why they didn't bother giving Morgan a disfigured face and golden mask. Maybe that's coming.  

I don't think I'll continue watching. I'm re-reading the book now.

[Curled Finger]

I subscribed to MGM+ specifically to watch The Winter King having been mesmerized by the story with my recent first reading.   The show is not that story.  Black Merlin did not bother me.  Young kind Merlin did.  While I am sort of enjoying the show, it is not telling the book story which is a shame because the book story is brilliant.  However, society in this day and age is not ready for that story.  I get that.  No one wants Christianity to be the bad guy.  There was such a primal beauty in druidism as told in the story.  It was a central theme for crying out loud.  Nice young Merlin isn't part of the real tale.  I figure the writers will give Merlin's story line to Nimue or nut their Merlin up real quick.   

So far The Winter King does not suck for what it is.  It's not the Corwell story.  The writers missed that boat at the gate and that is a shame because that is a great spin on the Arthurian tale.  The show has potential and I expect to keep watching because it scratches an itch.  So long as I don't expect the show to be the books and stay in their lane it is a decent story with good actors and lush scenery.  The man who plays Owain is fantastic.  I like the Arthur, Derfel and Nimue actors a lot.  Then there are characters who are nothing like the book characters at all such as Morgan and Samsun.  I am dreading what Lancelot and Guinevere will be.   

I don't care what color or race actors are.  Any good actor can own a role.  The problem we as viewers face is terrible writing, my friends.  Sadly, this poor guy with the Merlin yoke was given a character we can't fathom.  Had they written the character true, we wouldn't care if he was a purple fat woman.