[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Gertrude]

@Maia I agree with your complaints - those all kind of fall under the 'rushed' umbrella for me. I get it, they need to move things, but really, it just helped to make it feel underwhelming and not polished.

I also really disliked how Egwene was the one to stand against Ishy. She just needed to distract him, or hold a hit or two and then have the other girls pitch in, or like you said, have her disrupt the shield. That would showcase her power and also allow Rand to have a beast mode moment too. I am disliking how they keep delaying showing Rand's potential. I get that he doesn't have perfect control at this point, but neither does Nyneave and we know her potential very well. The way they showed it made Egwene seem like more equal to Ishy than I think she is. Yes, she's just holding a shield and struggling to do so, but I don't think their imbalance is showcased well. When Nyneave faces down Moghedian, it won't be as impressive.

The more I'm thinking of how they changed the Sul'dam the more it makes me disappointed. If the sul'dam are just weak, then the Seanchan don't have a reason to actually fear the implications. It makes it easier for them to justify that it's ok since they are too weak to be a threat and are in fact still necessary to collar the dangerous damane who do actually have a lot of power. The books never dealt with this ticking time bomb and I had hopes the show would tackle it in some way. I also didn't like that Egwene puzzled it out rather than just having Elayne and Nyneave figure it out when the a'dam worked. The show is really building up Egwene and she is insufferable enough. She doesn't need to be the hero every damn time.

Also - Lan and Moiraine are randomly attacked on the beach - why? An archer fired one arrow just so Lan could catch it. Again, why? Fire at Moiraine you idiot. It's this type of shit that brings it down IMO. I hate to say it, but I don't know if Rafe is a good writer. He wrote both finales and to me they were both disappointing. (yeah season 1 gets a lot of slack, but there were still things I think could have been done better). As a showrunner - sure, he's doing fine. But I'm not loving his episodes so far.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gertrude

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, JGP said:

Lots to digest, but from my small place as an artist and former animator, both design and animation of the Dragon Banner were regrettably bad.

Yeah ... the idea was cool, the execution was less than impressive IMO.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I also really disliked how Egwene was the one to stand against Ishy. She just needed to distract him, or hold a hit or two and then have the other girls pitch in, or like you said, have her disrupt the shield. That would showcase her power and also allow Rand to have a beast mode moment too. I am disliking how they keep delaying showing Rand's potential. I get that he doesn't have perfect control at this point, but neither does Nyneave and we know her potential very well. The way they showed it made Egwene seem like more equal to Ishy than I think she is. Yes, she's just holding a shield and struggling to do so, but I don't think their imbalance is showcased well. When Nyneave faces down Moghedian, it won't be as impressive.

Time for a blunt moment - it is poor writing when a female character is empowered mainly because male characters were dumbed down/nerfed etc. A female character should be shown strong in whatever way despite the presence of male characters.

In this particular scene, we got to see the result of Egwene's OP levels having surged due to the Seanchan treatment, just like in the book (will the show even explore the moral implications of that?). But unfortunately we also got to see an unimaginative Ishamael hurl the cliche fire bolts against the hero. Were are the exploding heads? The complex weaves?

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

The more I'm thinking of how they changed the Sul'dam the more it makes me disappointed. If the sul'dam are just weak, then the Seanchan don't have a reason to actually fear the implications. It makes it easier for them to justify that it's ok since they are too weak to be a threat and are in fact still necessary to collar the dangerous damane who do actually have a lot of power. The books never dealt with this ticking time bomb and I had hopes the show would tackle it in some way. 

The show has not established that there are two types of channelers: those with the spark and those who can learn. In a way that's what Egwene's line implies, I think, but it was clumsily put on screen. And really the whole thing was for the general viewing audience. The show should have taken more time with this detail in the early episodes when they were at the Tower, and then this moment could have been a nice payoff.

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

The show is really building up Egwene and she is insufferable enough. She doesn't need to be the hero every damn time.

Judkins said she was his favorite character from the books and it shows. Like Tyrion for GRRM.  

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Also - Lan and Moiraine are randomly attacked on the beach - why? An archer fired one arrow just so Lan could catch it. Again, why? Fire at Moiraine you idiot.

The arrow was fired at Moiraine, but it came from an angle which allowed Lan to stretch out his hand and catch it.

[Slurktan]

10 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

- It sucks we didn't get to see the two captured Aes Sedai. When the damane were channeling from the tower, I wondered if they were going to mention the AS's inability to use the OP in battle against people. But too much detail for one episode I suppose.

I'm pretty sure the body of the Blue from season 1 is where Egwene got the collar. No Ryma though.

[David Selig]

Pretty disappointing finale to me. Way too many contrived moments where it felt the characters have read the plot. "Mat, bring the Horn to Rand right now, even though we have no idea he is here", for example. The Seanchan were pathetic redshirts who got slaughtered en masse with ease by our guys time and time again. Moiraine destroying a dozen large ships who were miles away from her was just absurd. The Whitecloacks freaking catapult beating so many damane was silly. Even the spectacle was pretty average because the fighting choreography was subpar and the channelling effect were too repetitive.

But the worst was the blatant favourisim towards Egwene who got most of the glory. Of course she didn't need saving, why did Nynaeve and Elayne even bothered with a plan, superbadass Egwene who is the showrunner's favourite obviously won't need anythign like this. Her standing up to Ishamael one on one for so long was ridiculous. Poor Nynaeve got nothing this episode, not only she didn't do anything to save Egwene, but it was Elayne who Healed Rand. And she couldn't do her job as a Wisdom properly with the arrow in Elayne's leg.

Ingtar's sacrifice was pretty pointless, not only there was no dramatic weight without the Darkfriend reveal, but also he didn't buy the others any time anyway. The alley was too wide to hold the enemies there and he was died in thirty seconds.

Mat had some good moments and Lanfear is always cool, and there was some spectacular shots. Moghedien was good too. I actually liked how Rand dealt with Thurak, the fight in the books has always seemed contrived and implausible to me. But overall I was disappointed.

[fionwe1987]

On the Oaths thing, Moiraine doesn't have a leg to stand on. If she doesn't think they're Darkfriends for sure, and she doesn't, the threat to Rand, even with the possibility of what that can mean for the world, doesn't justify her killing them, per the Oaths. She needs to be in personal danger from them, which she clearly was not.

Egwene fighting Ishamael: that she could hold the shield for a bit but struggled seems fine, but I agree that Ishamael didn't seem to be doing much. One could ask if he was really even trying, but towards the end, he definitely was, and it would have made more sense that Elayne arrives and links with Egwene. The two of them linked holding off Ishamael would be much more believable. 

On figuring out the a'dam, I'm also unhappy with the "very weak channeler" nonsense. That said, Egwene is the one who figures it out in the books, too, so this isn't Rafe favoritism. 

That said, I'm pretty sure someone asked RJ what happens if an a'dam bound person put an a'dam on their leash holder. Them canceling out works for me, but I'll be honest, the better escape would have been Elayne and Nynaeve breaking her free, then her surprising Renna by hitting her with the very pitcher she was trained on. 

Renna is definitely dead, though. The a'dam wouldn't have snapped open on its own if not. What a waste.

[Corvinus85]

Moiraine's action against the ships would have been more believable if she just caused some giant waves to mess them up and cause the damane to lose focus on the shield. That way the oath probably would have been respected on account for her not causing direct harm to people. But she pretty much exploded that ship from the bottom. smh

I also dislike how Rand always drops down to his knees every time he gets shielded. They're not beating him, he's just shielded. It's like the show is already thinking ahead at Dumai's Wells.

I don't believe Ishy is dead, and I agree it would be a real shame if we lost Fares. But likely we will get a dose of resurrection later, but for next season it's other Forsakens' turn.

[Gaston de Foix]

Really interesting comments on the season/finale here.  Here's my non-reader* thoughts:

1.  I think from a very basic story-telling perspective they had to wrap up a lot of show narrative threads that paralleled an end point with fidelity to the books and kept people invested in the characters. There's a bunch of subtle touches I missed (such as Moggy luring Lanfear into Tel'aran'rhiod so I will probably rewatch season 1 onwards at some point to see what I missed.

Like everyone else, I really disliked the conscious fulfillment of the prophecy through Moiraine creating a dragon illusion (and the CGI sucked), but I can see why you have to give Rosamund Pike something suitably impressive to do (beyond single-handedly sinking the Seanchan fleet) when she's one of your six main characters.   

 Egwene had the most impressive arc and probably the best executed.  FWIW, I think Renna is still alive, and will recur in future seasons.  I also think that Egwene dismissing Sul'dam as weak was probably intended as shit talk rather than an accurate portrayal of their power level.  Badly executed, but it makes a basic story-telling sense to have her be a Seanchan POV/antagonist character in the future.    

I liked Matt's redemption arc, really disliked the dagger spear, and liked how he unconsciously fulfilled Min's viewing.  

Nynaeve's arc sucked and she made no progress at all in the season beyond being raised to accepted.  Single biggest story-telling failure in the season.  

Perrin's arc was rushed but made plot sense.  

Lanfear was the season MVP.

Rand being able to execute those weaves to kill Turok and the Seanchan and/or denying Ishamael with the authority of Lews Therin made little sense if he has no access to those memories (I also don't think the actor playing Lews had sufficient gravitas).  Yeah, maybe it's his native strength plus the difference between a OP user and non-users but then why didn't Turok have some channelers with him).  

His killing Ishamael by stabbing him made a certain amount of sense (he's not going to be able to beat Ishamael in the OP yet particularly if we have elaborate training montages in the next season).  

Ishamael's arc made philosophical sense but only if his "death" is a bluff/predestined act to allow Rand to fulfil the prophecies.  The hardest part of the books philosophically speaking is that killing Rand is no kind of solution in the WOT series because he will just be reborn again (still not sure why he can't just be balefired out of existence).  

I think overall the show does a good job explaining this as a motive for why the various Forsaken just don't come at him and kill him at the start.  

*  I have read AMOL several times and read bits and pieces of the other books usually just skimming forward to find finale/action scenes 

[Gaston de Foix]

12 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

We can presume the show is saying that with the bond masked, he's less of a badass, which seems fine to me, and has some interesting implications for why Alanna masks her bond with her possible Darkfriend BedWarder. 

I missed this in the show.  When does Alanna mask her bond?

[David Selig]

How deadly is the Shadar Logoth dagger supposed to be in the show, BTW? All I can recall about it from last season is that Loial was stabbed with it in the last episode and somehow survived without explanation. Here Rand survived for minutes after being stabbed and was Healed by Elayne really quickly. On the other hand, the dagger was like a mini lightsaber when it cut with extreme ease through Mat's door and the Horn's box. 

[karaddin]

40 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

On the Oaths thing, Moiraine doesn't have a leg to stand on. If she doesn't think they're Darkfriends for sure, and she doesn't, the threat to Rand, even with the possibility of what that can mean for the world, doesn't justify her killing them, per the Oaths. She needs to be in personal danger from them, which she clearly was not.

Renna is definitely dead, though. The a'dam wouldn't have snapped open on its own if not. What a waste.

1st - but much like the lying it's dependent on her perception - if she truly views the threat to Rand as an imminent threat to her then it's ok. Throw in her being able to convince herself that there are also people on the tower that qualify as Aes Sedai and that's plenty for her to work with.

2nd - it can drop off if Egwene released it, that's exactly why hers fell off - Renna released hers. Again I don't think that's what happened, the obvious interpretation is that she just killed Renna. But both fit what we saw.

13 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I missed this in the show.  When does Alanna mask her bond?

In one of the conversations between Rand and Alanna's warders (that apparently everyone but me and my wife hated lol) Maksim told Lan that Alanna keeps the bond with him masked most of the time. I think it was justified under him not loving how intense her love for Ihvon feels through the bond although I might be misremembering that, but if that's just an excuse that allows him to do darkfriend shit (as well discussed on the basis of the stuff in ep7) then its seeded nicely.

[karaddin]

Just now, David Selig said:

How deadly is the Shadar Logoth dagger supposed to be in the show, BTW? All I can recall about it from last season is that Loial was stabbed with it in the last episode and somehow survived without explanation. 

I think it's pretty safe to say the show regards that as a major fuck up on their part which happened in the end of season 1 scramble to deal with Barney leaving and the pandemic. It was completely ignored this season because it's lose/lose once you've made a mistake like that - trying to address it and fix it just wastes more time on something you shouldn't have done, so you can just ignore it and hope the audience rolls with ignoring it too.

It's certainly fair to ding the show for that retcon, but given they seem to know it was a mistake you'll enjoy the show if you can just give them the retcon and move on. Just pretend it was a normal dagger.

[IFR]

On 9/17/2023 at 2:09 PM, Maia said:

Eh, are you going to pretend that WoT books series isn't permeated by a message? Which, along with a generous helping of  author's fetishes often gets shoved down the reader's throat to the detriment of the story? Though in this case it is "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus and never the twain shall meet." It is just that the rest of it is good enough to make up for it, for the most part.

I'd like to point out here that I strongly dislike what the show is doing with Lan so far - I am not against him being more expressive, but they went overboard and hadn't allowed him to shine at all since early season 1. The mourning scene was unnecessary and overdone, him needing Nyn's help to track Moiraine was abominable and his season 2 arc is sentimental nonsense so far.

Sure, I will dispute that The Wheel of Time is "woke" in the common usage of the parlance.

Robert Jordan set out to write a premise where women had elevated power in one respect, and through that avenue there was an equal dynamic between genders. Robert Jordan treated the genders as still having several local power imbalances, but the net result he set out to depict was a power equivalence. I don't think he aimed to write this premise as anything more than an interesting idea for a story.

The writing of the show absolutely meets the understanding of "woke", a component of which is to tear men down and make them ineffective in order to empower women. This is done repeatedly in show.

Just because men are allowed occasional moments does not negate the dominant pattern of this occurring. Lan was given his moment to explain to Rand and Moiraine how to wield saidin (I sincerely hope Lan replaces Asmodean in teaching Rand, so he'll keep bring up stuff he read in the tower and Rand learns that way). Lan cuts through a bunch of Seanchan (which first of all wasn't impressive because the Seanchan were utterly incompetent, and everyone was effortlessly cutting them down, and second was totally stupid - no one thought to go to the side while Lan was occupied and try to kill the woman channelling?).

Mat was given his ridiculous lightsaber moment, since now the Shadar Logoth dagger can burn through things. This was again nonsensical, because he'll stab one redcoat and they die instantly, but then he stabs Rand and Rand is able to push on for several minutes because the plot demands it I guess. Mat also gets to summon his cheesy warriors of the past.

And Rand kills Turak and his men. Granted, Egwene and Nynaeve could have effortlessly have done this as far back as season 1, and both they and every other channeller has managed far greater feats of power, but Rand got his scrap. It was also unearned. He had up to this point been depicted as pathetically weak and suddenly he can do this? He was of course later shown up by Moiraine burning an entire fleet of damane by herself from a mile or so away, and Egwene standing up to Ishamael (he could have been toying with her, but the fact that this is even a question for some novice standing up to - in the books - one of the two most powerful channellers in the story - is pretty telling).

So the writers don't totally begrudge the men of times to show they aren't totally worthless. But mostly this show actively changes the books to emphasize how powerful women are, and how foolish and incompetent men are. It doesn't even try to be subtle about it.

I personally find this approach incredibly patronizing and insulting, but it seems very popular now.

Edited October 6, 2023 by IFR

[karaddin]

It's wild seeing just how salty people are getting on this stuff, it worries me seeing that shit creeping out of the fringe where it's been previously. Mat was the hero of this episode as far as I'm concerned and you're sounding pretty delusional to me if you think this is so clear it's a guarantee Rand will never get to shine.

[Corvinus85]

The opening scene with Lews Therin made me ponder a question I probably had when first reading the books. How did the Forsaken learn to speak "English?" I can give it to Ishamael because of how he was imprisoned, but the rest? Were there Darkfriend teachers with textbooks ready to teach when they got set loose? While it takes a few months from when they get set loose to when we first meet most Forsaken (or even longer) it stretches belief. Did they pull an Antonio Banderas in The 13th Warrior?

[IFR]

24 minutes ago, karaddin said:

It's wild seeing just how salty people are getting on this stuff, it worries me seeing that shit creeping out of the fringe where it's been previously. Mat was the hero of this episode as far as I'm concerned and you're sounding pretty delusional to me if you think this is so clear it's a guarantee Rand will never get to shine.

Mat's entire sequence was nonsensical and cheesy, but that's not the argument I suppose.

I have no idea how they will handle Rand. It seems clear to me that the writers regard Egwene and Nynaeve and Moiraine as the true protagonists of the show, and giving Rand his moments from the book steals the thunder from them.

It's impossible to use the books to speculate because the show disregards the books. What does Dumai's Wells even mean now? Egwene and Nynaeve have already slaughtered tens of thousands of Trollocs. A bunch of men killing a few hundred or thousand men is pretty underwhelming. And I have a hard time seeing the show allow Rand to successfully make women submit to him. That just seems wildly out of place for this kind of show.

The magic system itself has changed from something that had rules, to a Goodkind-esque it works as the plot demands it work. Which again robs many future moments of their impact.

And even speaking of book moments - well, I can't think of a single faithful representation of any book moments so far, so I don't see it as reasonable to expect the good book moments in any recognizable form. So what are we building up to? 

To me, this has gone the way of The Witcher, and the later seasons of Game of Thrones. It regularly makes no sense, it's extremely campy (eg Hopper was nearly a sad moment because seeing animals hurt is always affecting, but it was instantly ruined by the cheesy CG wolf Hopping above the body), and it just is so poorly thought out. It's hard to give it credit for subtle moments when it openly violates its own rules. Eg Moiraine had trouble killing a few Trollocs with lightning in the first episode, but now is able to take on an entire fleet from a mile; the already mentioned problem of who and what the dagger can kill; etc., etc.).

Game of Thrones had clever detail and hidden nuance. Succession and The Wire and Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul did too. The problem with The Wheel of Time is that unlike those shows, when you delve in the details what you find is pure nonsense.

Edited October 6, 2023 by IFR

[karaddin]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The opening scene with Lews Therin made me ponder a question I probably had when first reading the books. How did the Forsaken learn to speak "English?" I can give it to Ishamael because of how he was imprisoned, but the rest? Were there Darkfriend teachers with textbooks ready to teach when they got set loose? While it takes a few months from when they get set loose to when we first meet most Forsaken (or even longer) it stretches belief. Did they pull an Antonio Banderas in The 13th Warrior?

Maybe the Holy Grail (the.. Horn of Valere? Lol) catches them up on modern language

https://youtube.com/shorts/IGKz1CBIJOk?si=b-j2efpBOSMDZXMn

[fionwe1987]

38 minutes ago, David Selig said:

How deadly is the Shadar Logoth dagger supposed to be in the show, BTW? All I can recall about it from last season is that Loial was stabbed with it in the last episode and somehow survived without explanation. Here Rand survived for minutes after being stabbed and was Healed by Elayne really quickly. On the other hand, the dagger was like a mini lightsaber when it cut with extreme ease through Mat's door and the Horn's box. 

It is as deadly as the show needs it to be. That said, maybe it needs to be wielded by Mat to have its full effect, for some reason? Not that the show has bothered to show this, or anything...

38 minutes ago, karaddin said:

1st - but much like the lying it's dependent on her perception - if she truly views the threat to Rand as an imminent threat to her then it's ok. Throw in her being able to convince herself that there are also people on the tower that qualify as Aes Sedai and that's plenty for her to work with.

The Oaths are flexible, but not that flexible. If Rand being shielded can be twisted into a personal defense argument by Moiraine, then she is, functionally, not following that Oath, at all. You can't take a lie, imagine it to be truth, and speak it. Nor can you come up with nonsensical rationalizations and use the Power as a weapon. 

For contrast, in Knife of Dreams and Lord of Chaos, multiple Aes Sedai make it clear they cannot attack a mass of Aiel/Seanchan till they're close enough that the Aes Sedai feel directly threatened. That's because the Oath specifically mentions using the Power as a weapon only as a last defense when your life, that of a Warder or another sister are at stake. And you cannot imagine the threat, you must know it is a threat.

38 minutes ago, karaddin said:

2nd - it can drop off if Egwene released it, that's exactly why hers fell off - Renna released hers. Again I don't think that's what happened, the obvious interpretation is that she just killed Renna. But both fit what we saw.

I need to see the scene again, but when Renna released Egwene, her arm band fell off first, then Egwene's collar. When it happens with Renna, her collar gets released first, then Egwene's armband drops, which to me implies Renna died first. 

14 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

The opening scene with Lews Therin made me ponder a question I probably had when first reading the books. How did the Forsaken learn to speak "English?" I can give it to Ishamael because of how he was imprisoned, but the rest? Were there Darkfriend teachers with textbooks ready to teach when they got set loose? While it takes a few months from when they get set loose to when we first meet most Forsaken (or even longer) it stretches belief. Did they pull an Antonio Banderas in The 13th Warrior?

They speak "New Tongue" which is a simplified version of Old Tongue, so RJinsisted they just picked it up. But it shouldn't work like that, and the rest of the language evolution in WoT doesn't make much sense, anyway. Chalk this up to bad worldbuilding.

ETA: On the whole "woke" thing... can we define woke and stick to that definition, please? At least for this conversation? Otherwise, you can say "anti-woke" and use it to cover nearly any viewpoint.

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[karaddin]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

 I need to see the scene again, but when Renna released Egwene, her arm band fell off first, then Egwene's collar. When it happens with Renna, her collar gets released first, then Egwene's armband drops, which to me implies Renna died first. 

Rewatched it just now and you're right, good catch. In that case yup, Renna's dead. Woman of her word I guess lol.

[Cas Stark]

I liked it, thought it had too much going on for a single episode.  The last three episodes definitely better than anything that went before.

Lanfear, Moraine&family, Lan, Rand, Siuan, Logain and a couple of others are all very watchable.  Not so much for most of the rest.... I'm just not interested in Matt and Perrin.  The two women's stories are more interesting, but they are not that interesting on their own.  

I can always do without the animal deaths.  Always.