War Declared in Israel

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Space lasers. 

Yeah, I don't know. I don't have an answer. But playing wack-a-mole with artillery in a densely populated urban environment won't benefit anyone in the long run. And that's aside from it being illegal and immoral. 

It is immoral, but it's also deeply immoral to intentionally use your own civilians as human meat shields, especially when you're suppose to be the entity in charge and thus your primary goal should be to protect them. Firing rockets from housing districts, hospitals and schools is a horrific way to lead your people towards a better life, especially when you know the other side will fire back.

[Craving Peaches]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yet not responding just invites more indiscriminate slaughter of civilians from the people who did it first, especially when their stated goal is to destroy the people they attacked.

I never said they should not respond. I said they should not respond by indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. Of course, because they have crammed all the Palestinians into an open air prison, it is going to be hard to avoid collateral damage. Hamas hiding supplies in civilian buildings doesn't help. The advice being given to citizens, to 'leave' the area, is not much good because there is nowhere they can go.

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The cycle only ends with new leadership on both sides.

New attitude on both sides is needed, not just new leadership.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I said they should not respond by indiscriminate slaughter of civilians.

I think everyone agrees with this, but targeting Hamas bases, munitions, etc. is going to kill civilians and it's not at all "indiscriminate".

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

because they have crammed all the Palestinians into an open air prison

I've been hearing this a lot, but it dawned on me recently that this doesn't make sense. Because Gaza has a border with Egypt. It's like calling Mexico a prison because you can't cross freely into the US.

Or is it the case that Egypt is as unwilling to allow Palestinians into their country?

[Spockydog]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've been hearing this a lot, but it dawned on me recently that this doesn't make sense. Because Gaza has a border with Egypt. It's like calling Mexico a prison because you can't cross freely into the US.

Or is it the case that Egypt is as unwilling to allow Palestinians into their country?

For most, yes.

From Human Rights Watch:

Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15

Quote

 

Israel’s sweeping restrictions on leaving Gaza deprive its more than two million residents of opportunities to better their lives, Human Rights Watch said today on the fifteenth anniversary of the 2007 closure. The closure has devastated the economy in Gaza, contributed to fragmentation of the Palestinian people, and forms part of Israeli authorities’ crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians.

Israel’s closure policy blocks most Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing professionals, artists, athletes, students, and others from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, including unnecessary delays and mistreatment of travelers, have exacerbated the closure’s harm to human rights.

“Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “As many people around the world are once again traveling two years after the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, Gaza’s more than two million Palestinians remain under what amounts to a 15-year-old lockdown.”

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Spockydog

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

Or is it the case that Egypt is as unwilling to allow Palestinians into their country?

I think it was in a Noah Smith article there was a suggestion to just give the Gaza strip to Egypt. Just let them have it. I didn't read the rest of the article to find out why this is a bad idea but at first glance it seems like a pretty obvious solution.. let the Egyptians deal with the situation. 

Or maybe Egypt can just invite all the Palestinians to come live there. 

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

I think it was in a Noah Smith article there was a suggestion to just give the Gaza strip to Egypt. Just let them have it. I didn't read the rest of the article to find out why this is a bad idea but at first glance it seems like a pretty obvious solution.. let the Egyptians deal with the situation. 

Or maybe Egypt can just invite all the Palestinians to come live there. 

Egypt doesn't want that. Palestinians likely don't want that. The Egyptian military occupation before Israel's wasn't that rosy either.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I never said they should not respond. I said they should not respond by indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. Of course, because they have crammed all the Palestinians into an open air prison, it is going to be hard to avoid collateral damage. Hamas hiding supplies in civilian buildings doesn't help. The advice being given to citizens, to 'leave' the area, is not much good because there is nowhere they can go.

Like many have said, the Israelis are damned if they do not respond and damned if they do. Hamas lacks equal means to fight, but overall their tactics are worse, again in part because they don't seem to really care about their own people. That's not their primary goal. It is for the Israeli government, but one can recognize they do a lot of awful things in the process. 

Quote

New attitude on both sides is needed, not just new leadership.

You need openminded people on both sides who can sit down and actually work on a possible solution with the understanding both sides will have to make sacrifices (as will many other countries). Right now both sides are led by closeminded assholes who want to dominate the other side, the caveat being conservative Israelis want to control Palestinians for the time being while Hamas wants to exterminate Jews. The latter just continues the cycle. 

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

Or is it the case that Egypt is as unwilling to allow Palestinians into their country?

Just one more complication. They don't want them to come in, but who knows how lax they are in letting weapons cross the boarder. My understanding is the Egyptians don't really care that much about the plight of Palestinians. Just one more wrinkle in a region where there's so much hostility in all kinds of directions. 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Egypt doesn't want that. Palestinians likely don't want that. The Egyptian military occupation before Israel's wasn't that rosy either.

It seems like a better solution to me than all the other ones, everything else seems totally unrealistic. Giving Gaza to Egypt, with Israel creating a tight border on their side, but also paying to help Egypt support the area sound much more workable than trying to integrate a bunch of people who hate you and wish you dead. 

I'm sure the Palestinians don't want to be where they are now either, and it's not like they have any real historic attachment to the land, so moving to Egypt, a muslim country should surely be more pleasant than what they have currently. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think it was in a Noah Smith article there was a suggestion to just give the Gaza strip to Egypt. Just let them have it. I didn't read the rest of the article to find out why this is a bad idea but at first glance it seems like a pretty obvious solution.. let the Egyptians deal with the situation. 

Or maybe Egypt can just invite all the Palestinians to come live there. 

Nah, the better solution has always been relocation to the West Bank. That way they're connected to Jordan which has a larger Palestinian population than in Egypt. There are more millions of Palestinians in Jordan while less than 100k in Egypt. 

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nah, the better solution has always been relocation to the West Bank. That way they're connected to Jordan which has a larger Palestinian population than in Egypt. There are more millions of Palestinians in Jordan while less than 100k in Egypt. 

And what is the major objection to that? 

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

It seems like a better solution to me than all the other ones, everything else seems totally unrealistic. Giving Gaza to Egypt, with Israel creating a tight border on their side, but also paying to help Egypt support the area sound much more workable than trying to integrate a bunch of people who hate you and wish you dead. 

I'm sure the Palestinians don't want to be where they are now either, and it's not like they have any real historic attachment to the land, so moving to Egypt, a muslim country should surely be more pleasant than what they have currently. 

Who's to say they won't face discrimination in Egypt, too? Being Muslim is about the only common thread with the majority of Egyptians. Plus this is a possible solution for Gaza. Now you create a large Palestinian diaspora in Egypt, who may want to migrate to the West Bank. So what about the West Bank? 2-state? Of course that would mean all the Israeli settlers leaving.

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Nah, the better solution has always been relocation to the West Bank. That way they're connected to Jordan which has a larger Palestinian population than in Egypt. There are more millions of Palestinians in Jordan while less than 100k in Egypt. 

I've been thinking whether a 2-state solution is viable where all the Palestinians in Gaza relocate to the WB, while the Israeli settlers leave to make room for them, and are settled in Gaza and elsewhere. I believe that one of the main roadblocks for the 2-state solution negotiations has been an agreement on where to settle the borders, especially with regard to Jerusalem. Am I wrong?

[Craving Peaches]

43 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've been hearing this a lot, but it dawned on me recently that this doesn't make sense. Because Gaza has a border with Egypt. It's like calling Mexico a prison because you can't cross freely into the US.

Or is it the case that Egypt is as unwilling to allow Palestinians into their country?

Can't cross, and Israel has said they will bomb any aid convoys. Multiple human rights agencies and UN and government leaders have described it as an 'open-air prison'. 

[Darzin]

I don't know why the Palestinians would leave Gaza. Gaza has very hard borders that have been some of the most stable in the Israel Palestine conflict. It's one of the least disputed pieces of land in the conflict with no Israeli soldiers or settlements and no occupation. In every peace plan I've ever seen it forms a future Palestinian state. It's also not land Israel particularly  wants. The West Bank is far more desirable to Israel because of cultural significance, holy sites and being the heart of ancient Israel. While the elevation is significant for military purposes. Israel wants to keep control of the elevated hills and the Jordan valley. 

You can't force Egypt to take Gaza, Israel has offered it to them before and they've refused.  I doubt you could even bribe them. Egypt sees Gaza and Hamas as an actual threat to their government. Hamas comes from the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim brotherhood the current military government's archenemy and a banned and repressed organization in Egypt. Taking Gaza would be taking a city full of unrest and revolution, which is a non starter for a government whose biggest fear is another Arab spring. Hence, the capitol they are building out in the desert at the cost of billions of dollars. You're just never going to be able to offer them enough for them to risk their power and lives for that tiny scrap of land.  

Edited October 11, 2023 by Darzin

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Can't cross, and Israel has said they will bomb any aid convoys. Multiple human rights agencies and UN and government leaders have described it as an 'open-air prison'. 

The description of Gaza as an “open air prison” is far too accurate.

 

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The description of Gaza as an “open air prison” is far too accurate.

 

I just don't understand why no one did anything about it.

[Heartofice]

One thing I also struggle to understand is why the Palestinians should demand their own state at all. From my limited understanding there really isn’t such a thing as Palestinian ethnicity, there has never been a Palestinian state, and the Muslim population from the 19th century was some nomadic tribes rather than any country.

I would think it makes more sense to just move away or become a vassal state of a friendly Muslim country than the current situation, which doesn’t seem to have a workable solution.  Yes obviously depending on other countries to allow that to happen but still.
 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Heartofice

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And what is the major objection to that? 

Everyone is dug in and wants to not just win, but to dominate. That's why as I just said new leaders with new approaches are sorely needed. 

33 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I've been thinking whether a 2-state solution is viable where all the Palestinians in Gaza relocate to the WB, while the Israeli settlers leave to make room for them, and are settled in Gaza and elsewhere. I believe that one of the main roadblocks for the 2-state solution negotiations has been an agreement on where to settle the borders, especially with regard to Jerusalem. Am I wrong?

I've written about it a lot here. A three state solution actually makes the most sense in my mind. The idea of having both Gaza and the WB being a new single state is not tenable. And without massive outside aid they're not going to be able to rebuild Gaza. Gaza should become part of Israel and the WB the new independent Palestinian state with every settlement belonging to the displaced people from Gaza. Over time Israel can rebuild Gaza and once a period of peace is maintained Palestinians in the WB could have more business opportunities there so they don't completely lose access to the port. 

Everyone needs to suck it up and be okay with Jerusalem becoming an independent state with equal oversight between Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. with the UN also having a lot of oversight. The Holy City should be a place where all are welcomed to visit. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I just don't understand why no one did anything about it.

Because the leaders of numerous parties and states want it to be an issue that continues to exist. Many think the externalities of not dealing with it benefit them and Palestinians in Gaza suffer for it. 

[dbergkvist]

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I just don't understand why no one did anything about it.

Did you previously talk about how Netanyahu funded Hamas? Anyways, here is a source https://archive.ph/ABPWd for those who are unfamiliar:

Quote

Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

 

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

I think this explains very well why Gaza was the way it was.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

One thing I also struggle to understand is why the Palestinians should demand their own state at all.

Every ethnic group that's relatively small wants their own state. It's no different than Armenians or Kurds wanting a piece of land of their own.