Tywin et al. Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Can we take the debate about imperialism somewhere else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 48 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Can we take the debate about imperialism somewhere else? Maybe it's just the social media tendency to post towards click bait but I ve seen, perhaps the most egregious I wouldn't know for sure, takes that said this is just decolonialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 What a profoundly sad moment in human history. It's hard to feel anything but hopelessness and futile rage and despair. Be well, everyone. This sort of horrifying event can tear people apart. SeanF, Craving Peaches, Ser Arthurs Dawn and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Not even the first time an Israeli minister referred to them as animals: https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-deputy-defense-minister-called-palestinians-animals/amp/ That was around 8 years ago... If the international community does not intervene now, something awful is going to happen. Having grown up in Serbia (Yugoslavia at the time) during the '90s, I've heard more than my fair share of derogatory terms for "others" but I don't remember (not the same as "it never happened", mind you) them ever talking about how "others" are "human animals". And a whole lot of horrible stuff happened, a thousands of civilians were killed etc. I shudder to think how it could escalate if one side doesn't see the other as humans and "will act accordingly". 20 hours ago, Darryk said: America, England etc are traditionally Christian countries, the king of England is the head of the Anglican church. Most of the population may be secular but that's the case in Israel as well. America, England etc. most definitely re traditionally Christian countries, but the Church doesn't have a say in how the country is run, and Biblical laws are not in effect. King of England as the head of the Anglican church is purely ceremonial and a relic of times long past. Christian tradition has shaped those countries over the centuries, but not even all 10 commandments are law let alone some more obscure rules stated in the scriptures. Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 15 minutes ago, baxus said: I shudder to think how it could escalate if one side doesn't see the other as humans and "will act accordingly". You may have missed the fact that Hamas is already there. They use all the typical dehumanizing language used by antisemites for centuries. Fortunately, I think the Israeli rhetoric is about Hamas terrorist fighters, not all Palestinians. Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, baxus said: . King of England as the head of the Anglican church is purely ceremonial and a relic of times long past. There are also Anglican bishops that have seats in the House of Lords which I think should be changed... 11 minutes ago, Ran said: Fortunately, I think the Israeli rhetoric is about Hamas terrorist fighters, not all Palestinians There are calls for a 'second Nakba', so no, it is not just about Hamas, but ordinary Palestinians. The article I linked earlier from 2015 was also just the minister referring to ordinary Palestinians. Nakba - Wikipedia Israeli Knesset member calls for second ‘Nakba’ amid ongoing conflict with Hamas | Al Arabiya English Israel MK calls for a second Nakba in Gaza – Middle East Monitor There must not be a second Nakba - editorial - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com) Edited October 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches dbergkvist and baxus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ran said: You may have missed the fact that Hamas is already there. They use all the typical dehumanizing language used by antisemites for centuries. Yeah, but there is a difference when an organization that has repeatedly proven themselves as terrorists does it and when a country and its government do it. I mean, hopefully we apply higher standards to legally elected officials than we do to those who employ suicide bombing tactics, among other things. 15 minutes ago, Ran said: Fortunately, I think the Israeli rhetoric is about Hamas terrorist fighters, not all Palestinians. Unfortunately, I know that all (or at least most) Palestinians will suffer from it, not just Hamas terrorist fighters. As I said, I grew up in Yugoslavia in the '90s, I was 7-8 years old when the war started and, just like Palestinian kids today had nothing to do with what was going on around me and yet still had to wait in line to buy bread when sanctions were imposed on my country because of the actions of our government. There's a great punk band from Yugoslavia and later on Croatia, called KUD Idijoti and they have a song that, roughly translated goes "It's always the poor who get fucked" and it's as true for Palestinians today as it was for people in the Balkans in the '90s. Craving Peaches, dbergkvist and Crixus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 22 minutes ago, Ran said: Fortunately, I think the Israeli rhetoric is about Hamas terrorist fighters, not all Palestinians. I really think this is... a very favourable interpretation, let's say. There's no doubt that Israeli ministers are at the very least not taking care to make that distinction in their rhetoric. Craving Peaches, dbergkvist, Crixus and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, baxus said: America, England etc. most definitely re traditionally Christian countries, but the Church doesn't have a say in how the country is run, and Biblical laws are not in effect. King of England as the head of the Anglican church is purely ceremonial and a relic of times long past. Christian tradition has shaped those countries over the centuries, but not even all 10 commandments are law let alone some more obscure rules stated in the scriptures. Most middle Eastern countries are fairly secular in terms of governance and laws. For example, You can buy beer and liquor in most of the Middle East, despite it being totally forbidden under Islamic law. The function of religiosity is more one in terms of culture, with the red lines and scared cows involving religion rather then say racism and tolerance as in western countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Why is Israel bombing UN-run schools? Back in '99, when Yugoslavia was bombed by NATO, schools were out for the year, and there was military personnel in some of them, at least. I'm guessing Hamas might be doing the same now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Darzin said: Most middle Eastern countries are fairly secular in terms of governance and laws. For example, You can buy beer and liquor in most of the Middle East, despite it being totally forbidden under Islamic law. The function of religiosity is more one in terms of culture, with the red lines and scared cows involving religion rather then say racism and tolerance as in western countries. I haven't said anything about Middle-Eastern countries and their secularity or lack thereof. I asked for an example of a Christian country that has religious laws (other than the most obvious, don't kill, don't steal etc.) in effect. And the "best" response I received was "well, king of England sometimes wears a funny hat". EDIT: If "you can buy a beer" is the best example of religious freedoms in the Middle East, then there's obviously a problem. Edited October 11, 2023 by baxus Darzin and Larry of the Lawn 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 39 minutes ago, baxus said: Yeah, but there is a difference when an organization that has repeatedly proven themselves as terrorists does it and when a country and its government do it. Hamas is the governing power in Gaza. They aren't random terrorists. 35 minutes ago, mormont said: I really think this is... a very favourable interpretation, let's say. There's no doubt that Israeli ministers are at the very least not taking care to make that distinction in their rhetoric. The remark from Yoav Gallant came as part of an explicit meeting on the response to Hamas. He has been quite clear that Hamas is the target of Israel's response. Such as here. It's a huge leap to go from his talking about Hamas to then suggest the "human animals" that Israel is "fighting" are not actually Hamas. Darzin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 You have Israeli ministers calling for a second Nakba, and saying the Palestinians are animals and are going to deal with them accordingly. You have the cut off of all humanitarian aid to Gaza, where 2.3 million people, half of whom are children, all crammed into 141 square kilometres. All this against the backdrop of systematic oppression and slaughter of Palestinians for 70 years. All the major human rights agencies and the UN are saying a catastrophe is going to happen. Make no mistake, the Hamas attacks are awful too. Hamas clearly has similar intentions directed towards the Israelis. But Hamas does not represent all Palestinians, just as Netanyahu and co. don't represent all Israelis. At least the Israeli citizens have a government that is trying to protect them, a stronger military, and foreign support. The innocent Palestinians in Gaza have no one. Hamas clearly doesn't care about them. It really looks to me like there is an awful risk of ethnic cleansing on a much higher scale than seen before in the region. Answering the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians with the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is an awful idea, does not solve the issue and only leads to more bloodshed. It will only perpetuate the cycle of violence, unless, God forbid, all of one side is completely wiped out. Unfortunately, this is exactly what some of those Israeli politicians seem to want, to wipe out all the Palestinians. These are people are acting just like the leaders of the terrorist group they claim to be fighting against with these intentions. Crixus and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said: why do you always ask these strange questions? i didnt say that chinese imperialism is a good thing, a said that given how the chinese are doing their imperialism (loaning money to build infraestructure, with forgiving interest rates, etc.) i prefer that type of imperialism to how the usa does it. China didnt overthrow goverments across latin america, asia, middle east and africa. and i will say that i would prefer no country intervention be it china or the usa or some european country. and will also say that what the chinese are doing to de uyghur is horrible and unjustifiable. Yeah, you obviously need to learn more on the subject of "benevolent" imperialism of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ran said: Hamas is the governing power in Gaza. They aren't random terrorists. I didn't say they were "random terrorists" though, did I? I said "an organization that has repeatedly proven themselves as terrorists". Are you trying to claim that's not what they are? As far as them being "governing power", who did they run against in the election? What were the conditions the elections were took place in? I'm sure there was a level playing field for candidates who advocated for a more peaceful solution and negotiations with Israel etc. dbergkvist and Larry of the Lawn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 16 minutes ago, baxus said: I haven't said anything about Middle-Eastern countries and their secularity or lack thereof. I asked for an example of a Christian country that has religious laws (other than the most obvious, don't kill, don't steal etc.) in effect. And the "best" response I received was "well, king of England sometimes wears a funny hat". EDIT: If "you can buy a beer" is the best example of religious freedoms in the Middle East, then there's obviously a problem. Yeah I think I misunderstood your point a bit. I would never say that the Middle East has the same level of religious freedom as the west just that the governments their are often surprisingly secular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Just now, Ran said: Hamas is the governing power in Gaza. Elections last held roughly twenty years years ago on a 42.9% share of the vote (only with mandate to govern until 2014), half the people in Gaza are children who couldn't have voted then... People (of course not saying you are) are using this idea that Hamas is the governing power to justify the slaughter of all Palestinians in Gaza. Here are some charming examples I found from YouTube. "They got what they're asking for....they made a Big mistake....they chose Hamas as their representatives and their leaders...enough of the victim card..." (From a Channel 4 News video). "When you associate with enemies, it should not surprise you when you are dealt with accordingly." (BBC News clip) "I hope they get to see their creator soon. All 2million of them" (different BBC news clip) I have also seen various comments about how Israel should 'kill all the animals', 'bomb Gaza harder', 'end the conflict once and for all' (clear what they meant here). I haven't seen any about how Hamas should do this to the Israelis, though that might be more prevalent on other videos. dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) Over a thousand killed and over 5,000 wounded in the Gaza airstrikes so far. That number will only rise. Despite what anyone might say on the contrary, it is absolutely undeniable that civilians are being targeted and are dying. Collateral damage seems to be something the West is, also, comfortable with but there is no doubt that this will lead to more bloodshed in the long term. Just fucking sad. And infuriating. We never ever seem to learn. Edited October 11, 2023 by Relic Durckad, dbergkvist, Prince of the North and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, Darzin said: Yeah I think I misunderstood your point a bit. I would never say that the Middle East has the same level of religious freedom as the west just that the governments their are often surprisingly secular. Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming traditionally Christian countries are 100% free of religion. That would be nonsense. Religion, whichever it may be, has played a very important part in creating national identities as we know them today. I mean, if nothing else, we all get days off for religious holidays of "main" religion of the country we're living in. Even beyond that, there are countries in which religious institutions get involved, or at least try to get involved, in day to day politics and all that. I live in Serbia and Serbian Orthodox Church is getting away with crossing way too many lines for my taste, and the line between church and state does get a bit blurry at times but it's still there, and it's pretty clear most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts