Born To Be Psychopaths?

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think you should read what I actually wrote…because I have repeatedly said she is not a psychopath and only that her actions are troubling. She is a gray character. Actually with Tyrion’s dark turn in ADwD, I’d say she is one of the best examples of a character right in the middle (perfectly gray). 

You are either confusing me for another poster, or just ignoring my words. 

I was not contradicting you, simply making some general observations.  I quoted you, because I considered your comment relevant to what I was saying.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I see people defending the killing of Daeron, and I have an honest question for y'all : Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

[SerDuncan]

33 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

What is he, an embezzler or a pedophile slash murderer? Can't bunch em all together so easily

33 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

Vastly different scenarios, no refugee/immigrant is going to make me a zombie, though you could say the Walkers are aliens of a sort too

33 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

It's not your or our realm being threatened with annihilation. Dereliction of duty in such a world is unforgivable, especially when the perp is aware of the scale of the threat.

Edited October 17, 2023 by SerDuncan

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I see people defending the killing of Daeron, and I have an honest question for y'all : Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

I would report an escaped prisoner to the authorities, without question.

Would I kill a man like Daeron?  No, but then I have the option of turning him in.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Would I kill a man like Daeron?  No, but then I have the option of turning him in.

Although I’m not sure that the Braavosi authorities would even accept him as a prisoner if desertion from the Night’s Watch isn’t a crime there.

[SerDuncan]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

No, but then I have the option of turning him in.

 

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although I’m not sure that the Braavosi authorities would even accept him as a prisoner if desertion from the Night’s Watch isn’t a crime there.

Wow. This sparked something I believe is really interesting and worth a separate topic of its own if there are enough people interested. With the prevalent lawlessness inworld, I find that the addition of a bounty hunter culture would have benefited the already fantastic worldbuilding even more so. After all we had them in the real world here not so long ago, even in times of fractured states (Periods before Aegon's conquest mirror the civil war times in the US). Partly credit goes to all this Star Wars talk of late both in forum and irl.

So what do you guys think?

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I see people defending the killing of Daeron, and I have an honest question for y'all : Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

You’re applying real world logic, to the logic of a fantasy world. They’re like oil and water. 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I see people defending the killing of Daeron, and I have an honest question for y'all : Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

Arya didn't kill Dareon simply because he was a Night's Watch deserter.  She killed him because of his abandonment and betrayal of Sam and the others, and by extension her brother, and because of his indifferent and hedonistic attitude towards it all.  If he'd been more helpful and sympathetic to Sam, and kept a lower profile, I doubt Arya would have cared.  I still disapprove of her actions, considering it her worst act, but I can't really feel that sorry for Dareon.

[sifth]

44 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Arya didn't kill Dareon simply because he was a Night's Watch deserter.  She killed him because of his abandonment and betrayal of Sam and the others, and by extension her brother, and because of his indifferent and hedonistic attitude towards it all.  If he'd been more helpful and sympathetic to Sam, and kept a lower profile, I doubt Arya would have cared.  I still disapprove of her actions, considering it her worst act, but I can't really feel that sorry for Dareon.

I mean Darwin nearly killed Sam. He’s a hard character to feel sorry for.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

48 minutes ago, SerDuncan said:

 

Wow. This sparked something I believe is really interesting and worth a separate topic of its own if there are enough people interested. With the prevalent lawlessness inworld, I find that the addition of a bounty hunter culture would have benefited the already fantastic worldbuilding even more so. After all we had them in the real world here not so long ago, even in times of fractured states (Periods before Aegon's conquest mirror the civil war times in the US). Partly credit goes to all this Star Wars talk of late both in forum and irl.

So what do you guys think?

You should def start a thread! I don't know if I would interact since I'm not knowledgeable enough to add my own 2 cents, but I would enjoy reading everyone's opinions. ♥

[Willam Stark]

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

Yes, they might be a threat.

4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

Yes.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I feel the general opinion here is that:

• Arya is not a psychopath
• Dareon was not a good man
• Arya still shouldn't have killed him. Not just because she lacked authority, but because she is far too young to be burdening herself with such a major responsibility.

Arya is still a child and while circumstances beyond her control are forcing her to grow up too fast, she is now actively making choices that will have a negative impact on her in the future. But just like the other Stark children, she has no positive mentor to steer her in the right direction. As of now, her kill count is around 10 I believe? Most done in either self-defense or for the well-being of other people. The psychopath sticker being placed onto Arya isn't the only thing that frustrates me. It's also her hard-core stans who glorify a child killing as many people as she has because it's "badass" whilst completely ignoring just how horrific it is. No one in this thread is claiming the latter, but I see it a lot on other social media sites.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

As of now, her kill count is around 10 I believe?

• Stable boy (self defense)
• Bolton guard
• the squire and the Tickler at the Inn (defense of herself and Sandor)
• Dareon
• The insurance man
• Raff

She killed 7 men personally.

She also saved 7 lives personally

• Jaquen, Biter and Rorge (from being burned alive in a cage)
• Gendry and Hot Pie (with her escape from HH)
• Sandor (in the Inn)
• Samwell (from drowning)

 

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She killed 7 men personally.

She also saved 7 lives personally

I find this to be very interesting.  Very Jaqen H'ghar, to come out even on the death giving and lifesaving score.  Puts a rather different perspective on Arya, she's not just a homicidal maniac as some seem to hope for.   Without overt awareness to do so, she has balanced her kills and saves. 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

• Stable boy (self defense)
• Bolton guard
• the squire and the Tickler at the Inn (defense of herself and Sandor)
• Dareon
• The insurance man
• Raff

She killed 7 men personally.

She also saved 7 lives personally

• Jaquen, Biter and Rorge (from being burned alive in a cage)
• Gendry and Hot Pie (with her escape from HH)
• Sandor (in the Inn)
• Samwell (from drowning)

 

Actually, Arya did not save Sam from drowning.  That was Xondo, off the Cinnamon Wind.  I suppose you could give her credit for the bravos, but it's not clear Sam was in mortal danger.

It's also not clear what would have happened to Hot Pie and Gendry either. Anyway, I think she took them more for their company than any perceived future danger.

While I give her a pass on the deaths in Westeros, and I mostly blame the Faceless Men for the insurance guy, who may or may not have been cheating people, her killings of Dareon and Raff were purely murders of choice.  And while I am not sorry they are dead, I am sorry that it's Arya that made them dead.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Nevets

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

9 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I see people defending the killing of Daeron, and I have an honest question for y'all : Would you turn in an escaped prisoner that was doing you no harm? Would you call the authorities on them? 

To give an example I can think of in real life : If you knew someone was an illegal alien (i.e. didn't have a visa), would you report them to ICE? 

I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't kill Daeron. Do I think Daeron is a good person? Not really. Do I think he deserves to die? Also not really. 

Daeron was a poor boy who was repeatedly cheated out of justice.  By the lord who sent him to the Wall and by Arya Stark who, without mercy, took his life. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by James Fenimore Cooper XXII

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, LongRider said:

I find this to be very interesting.  Very Jaqen H'ghar, to come out even on the death giving and lifesaving score.  Puts a rather different perspective on Arya, she's not just a homicidal maniac as some seem to hope for.   Without overt awareness to do so, she has balanced her kills and saves. 

Yes. We see Jaqen's "teachings" being applied by Arya in relation to Dareon and Samwell. When she saved Sam from drowning, she stole a life/death of the Drowned God. Arya may have slit Dareon's throat, but she dumps his body into the canals (where he himself threw in all of his NW gear except his boots)

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Actually, Arya did not save Sam from drowning.  That was Xondo, off the Cinnamon Wind.  I suppose you could give her credit for the bravos, but it's not clear Sam was in mortal danger.

It's also not clear what would have happened to Hot Pie and Gendry either. Anyway, I think she took them more for their company than any perceived future danger.

[...] And while I am not sorry they are dead, I am sorry that it's Arya that made them dead.

You are correct: it was Xondo, though she did threaten the bravos away from Sam.

With Vargo Hoat taking over and how the Mountain killed most servants who worked for Roose and Vargo, at least one would have been killed to serve as food for the prisoners he kept there. Arya left herself, because she felt unsafe there. She did not want to abandon them to a danger, while attempting to flee to safety herself. They were her pack, and that means more than companionship alone.

I never claimed to be happy with her becoming a vigilante. I understand it, but it still breaks my heart.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I feel the general opinion here is that:

• Arya is not a psychopath
• Dareon was not a good man
• Arya still shouldn't have killed him. Not just because she lacked authority, but because she is far too young to be burdening herself with such a major responsibility.

Arya is still a child and while circumstances beyond her control are forcing her to grow up too fast, she is now actively making choices that will have a negative impact on her in the future. But just like the other Stark children, she has no positive mentor to steer her in the right direction. As of now, her kill count is around 10 I believe? Most done in either self-defense or for the well-being of other people. The psychopath sticker being placed onto Arya isn't the only thing that frustrates me. It's also her hard-core stans who glorify a child killing as many people as she has because it's "badass" whilst completely ignoring just how horrific it is. No one in this thread is claiming the latter, but I see it a lot on other social media sites.

The Abomination did a lot to cement the image of psychopathic Arya.

There, she really enjoys tormenting her victims (obnoxious though they are) and Sansa enjoys tormenting Ramsay (obnoxious though he is).  That was meant to show them both as being badass.

Arya seems to be having an orgasm, as she watches Walder Frey die.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

17 hours ago, LongRider said:

I find this to be very interesting.  Very Jaqen H'ghar, to come out even on the death giving and lifesaving score.  Puts a rather different perspective on Arya, she's not just a homicidal maniac as some seem to hope for.   Without overt awareness to do so, she has balanced her kills and saves. 

I mean....I am not saying Arya is like this, but....that's what serial killers do, lol. Like, what you are describing sounds like the plot of an episode of CSI. Carefully planning out someone's death...is in fact a sign of less empathy/more callousness toward life than someone who kills someone in a fit of rage. 

Again, I don't think Arya is a serial killer...but describing it this way weakens the point you are trying to make.