Israel - Hamas War VII

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Per reports that commander wasn't actually there. So that's fun.

Source? Hamas denied it, but that hardly means anything. I'm looking and can't see any evidence that it has been corroborated by anyone reputable.

[Zorral]

What the section of this piece tells us, without saying it right out, is Bibi&Co have every incentive to never have ceasefire, peace talks, because only by keeping this war going will they save their asses from prison.

Does a 2-State Solution, Long Discounted, Still Have a Future?
As President Biden and other Western leaders promote the idea, some diplomats and analysts say the Hamas-Israel war may breathe new life into it.

"... Israeli officials say they are focused on the battle against Hamas, which could last for months, and that any discussion of a peace process must wait until after the guns are silent. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/world/middleeast/israel-palestine-two-state-solution.html

Quote

 

.... “If America engages in what President Biden has stated he would commit to, there is a chance,” he said. “There is a chance for negotiations that could provide a step-by-step process to two distinct states.”

 Such an effort would have to overcome a thicket of obstacles, not least the proliferation of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Palestinians say have eroded the dream of creating a viable state on that land. The rise of ultranationalists in Israel further complicates the task: They oppose Palestinian statehood, seek to annex the West Bank, and know that uprooting the settlers is political dynamite.

Mr. Sher listed a string of caveats for Israeli-Palestinian talks: The two sides would have to start modestly, with a political process focused on disengagement rather than a high-stakes negotiation over the details of two states. Both would need new leaders, he said, since the existing ones have proven to be unwilling or incapable of striking a deal. Above all, Hamas would have to be vanquished and the Gaza Strip demilitarized.

Israeli officials say they are focused on the battle against Hamas, which could last for months, and that any discussion of a peace process must wait until after the guns are silent. But in think tanks and corners of the Israeli foreign ministry, discussion of what a day-after political process would look like has already begun.

Among Palestinians, suffering Israel’s bombardment and blockade of Gaza, and rising tensions on the West Bank, the prospects for statehood appear even more far-fetched. But some Palestinians argue that the shock of the Hamas attacks on Oct. 7 has stripped Israelis of the illusion that they can manage conflict with Palestinians without confronting their deeper aspirations for nationhood. ...

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

According to BBC and Al Jazeera there has been another strike on the same refugee camp, with dozens reported dead.

This morning here it was reported in the WaPo there had been at least three more strikes on that camp.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

is Bibi&Co have every incentive to never have ceasefire, peace talks,

Israel literally can't sustain a forever war like the US can. They can stretch it out, but if they achieve control of Gaza but then just putter about, Israelis are going to get very restless.

[Zorral]

They expect the US will keep supplying them as it always has.

[Kalbear]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Source? Hamas denied it, but that hardly means anything. I'm looking and can't see any evidence that it has been corroborated by anyone reputable.

That's fair! IDF has also claimed that it was confirmed that he was killed, but also nothing corroborating that.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Global network monitor confirms Gaza blackout

Earlier today, Palestinians' biggest telecommunications provider Paltel, announced "a complete interruption of all communications and internet services" in the Gaza Strip

It is the second such report since the start of Israel’s ground operation in Gaza.

The Paltel notification on social media said the cut off was "due to international routes that were previously reconnected being cut off again".

Global network monitor Netblocks confirmed a new blackout, adding it would mean "a total loss of telecommunications" for most of the territory's more than two million residents.

Those near Gaza's boundaries with Israel and Egypt might be able to pick up some signal if they have an international sim card.

Israel Gaza live news: More than 400 foreign nationals and injured leave Gaza as border finally opens - BBC News

[Altherion]

18 minutes ago, Zorral said:

They expect the US will keep supplying them as it always has.

Supply is not the issue. The US is a very large country with a population of over 330 million people and a professional army (i.e. an army composed entirely of people whose job it is to be soldiers). Israel is tiny and and while it has some professional soldiers, the bulk of its army is composed of people who have other jobs and are called up as needed. It cannot possibly maintain a multi-decade war the way the US can because most of its army needs to go back to work.

[Varysblackfyre321]

54 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And no, I'm not equally upset because their presence did not make Israel bomb that refugee camp.

Yeah I’ve always seen israel at least say when they bomb a hospital or school or mosque it’s because the people they were trying to kill were launching rockets from the place or something, there was actual immediate, active threat that endangered people’s lives.

Now it seems in some people’s minds like Israel would be justified in bombing a hospital if they’re even treating a Hamas commander.

[Varysblackfyre321]

41 minutes ago, Ran said:

Israel literally can't sustain a forever war like the US can

They don’t need to or want the goal of Netanyahu at least is to ethnically cleanses not get bogged down with the process of nation building.

[GrimTuesday]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Ah, so the Jewish conspiracy is not a conspiracy because actually it's a nation-wide conspiracy of "brainwashing" that somehow fails to touch all the peace activists and people who want peace who are in the service.

Time to reacquaint myself with Протоколы сионских мудрецов to put my mind right, I guess?

 

Jesus fucking Christ, way to completely take what I said in the least charitable way possible. I especially enjoyed the part where you referenced one of the Ur texts of antisemitic books as if I was somehow endorsing that perspective.

The reality is that countries of all types engage in brainwashing their population, it is just how nationalism works. I think In addition, we have Jewish folks in these threads who have spoken about how, as Jews, they are always cognizant of the fact that there are people out there who wish them harm simply for the fact that they are Jewish, and I am sure that goes doubly so for people in Israel who are told from the day they are born that they are surrounded on all sides by enemies who are actively plotting to do them harm. Of course there are those who the propaganda doesn't take hold as deeply, there are many groups within Israel that oppose the actions of the state and see Palestinians as full people, but just like in America, those people are generally the exception.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I feel I must say I personally know left wingers who furiously protested the judicial overhaul and did care for the abuses of Palestinians by Israel.

Though for many protesters yeah they wanted liberal democracy for domestic ly and fascist rule for everyone else.

Obviously There are exceptions, I saw a video that Vice (if I remember correctly, might have been Abby Martin) put out and part of it was following an Israeli peace activist who would take a Palestinian flag to the protests and he was talking about how he was actively harassed by other protesters for it. There are a lot of wonderful, kind people in Israel who do not agree with the government and it's actions, it is certainly not monolithic.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, when I think about Israelis - where almost every single citizen of both sexes has served in the military, where they are under regular bombardment and insurgent actions, where they have the most modern and trained army in the region and one of the most in the world, I think it makes sense that they won't want to fight for too long after being directly attacked by a force that wants to wipe them and their country out.

Please. War weariness will happen but Israel isn't the US. The reaction is not going to be the same.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

The reality is that countries of all types engage in brainwashing their population, it is just how nationalism works. I think In addition, we have Jewish folks in these threads who have spoken about how, as Jews, they are always cognizant of the fact that there are people out there who wish them harm simply for the fact that they are Jewish, and I am sure that goes doubly so for people in Israel who are told from the day they are born that they are surrounded on all sides by enemies who are actively plotting to do them harm. Of course there are those who the propaganda doesn't take hold as deeply, there are many groups within Israel that oppose the actions of the state and see Palestinians as full people, but just like in America, those people are generally the exception.

Just keep digging your hole deeper buddy. 

[Conflicting Thought]

one wonders, is it possible for israel to do something that would cause the people in here that defend or minimize israel crimes to condemn it? are they justified in every thing they do? is the answer always going to be..."its complicated"  when we are talking about thousands of kids getting murdered? allot of people showing their true colors because of this massacre and its so fucking  depressing

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

one wonders, is it possible for israel to do something that would cause the people in here that defend or minimize israel crimes to condemn it?

I wrote this two pages ago:

Quote

The West Bank, very little difference. It’s wrong and should be condemned. The occupation should end and agreements made for a contiguous Palestinian state there as soon as it is practicable. Violent settlers should be arrested and prosecuted for their terrorizing of their Palestinian neighbors, and Israel’s government should face repercussions for its role.

Hypocrites, heal thyself. Now, what things is it possible that Israel has already done that you're willing to praise and support?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Ran

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

one wonders, is it possible for israel to do something that would cause the people in here that defend or minimize israel crimes to condemn it? are they justified in every thing they do? is the answer always going to be..."its complicated"  when we are talking about thousands of kids getting murdered? allot of people showing their true colors because of this massacre and its so fucking  depressing

Idk, maybe read the threads... I think pretty much everyone has condemned many of their actions and my guess is 100% of the people posting here hate Netanyahu. I don't recall anyone sticking up for his evil ass. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Hypocrites, heal thyself. Now, what things is it possible that Israel has already done that you're willing to praise and support?

We talking domestically or how they’ve interacted with their neighbors and Palestinian groups in the region?

[Altherion]

Some good news:

Quote

Palestinian officials have said that 76 wounded Gazans and 335 foreign passport holders have been able to exit the territory, bringing the total to more than 400.

Also, the Cornell student making antisemitic threats is due in court:

 

Quote

Patrick Dai, a 21-year-old junior at the Ivy League school, was arrested Tuesday and charged federally with “posting threats to kill or injure another using interstate communications,” the US Attorney’s Office for New York’s Northern District announced. The charge is punishable by up to five years in prison.

...

Prosecutors say Dai published posts in an online discussion forum in which he threatened to kill and injure Cornell’s Jewish students and “shoot up” the university’s predominantly kosher dining hall, 104 West.

...

The posts were written under usernames referencing Hamas, and they used anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian slogans, according to an affidavit attached to the criminal complaint.

On the one hand, there have to be repercussions for this kind of behavior, but on the other, wow, what a way to ruin one's life.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We talking domestically or how they’ve interacted with their neighbors and Palestinian groups in the region?

Palestinian conflict seems to be the order of the day.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

19 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

one wonders, is it possible for israel to do something that would cause the people in here that defend or minimize israel crimes to condemn it? are they justified in every thing they do? is the answer always going to be..."its complicated"  when we are talking about thousands of kids getting murdered? allot of people showing their true colors because of this massacre and its so fucking  depressing

One wonders, is it possible for Hamas to do something that would cause the people in here that defend or minimize Hamas crimes to condemn it?  Are they justified in everything they do? Is the answer always going to be… “its complicated” when we wre talking about thousands in of kids getting murdered [and kidnapped]? allot of people are showing their true colors because of this massacre and its so fucking depressing.

Any group deliberately targeting civilians is committing war crimes.