Bael's Bastard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: Antisemitism is real and it’s disgusting and dangerous and we have to fight it every step of the way, until it is becomes a vile lesson from the past. We’re not there yet, not even close, and the rise in antisemitism worldwide is very scary and concerning and it got even worse after the terrorist attack on October 7. Criticism of Israel’s government and its policies and the way they are conducting this war is 100% valid IMO, and not only valid but necessary given the very troubling reports we’ve been getting from the start. Also very troubling IMO is conflating hateful bigotry and criticism. When criticism of the Israeli government is equated to either one being antisemitic or a self-hating Jew, it stifles the debate. And it very much feels like an attempt at shutting critics up because I imagine most people would rather not engage than be labeled an antisemite or a self-hating Jew. The Jews who have been defending Israel's right and obligation to uproot Hamas in these threads are all left, anti-Netanyahu, anti-occupation, pro-Palestinian state, so the idea that the issue is mere criticism of Israel is a load of shit. Those who frame an antizionist fringe that has made themselves odious to the majority of Jewish communities by apologizing for terror and demonizing any IDF action to deal with Hamas as "the good Jews" are stigmatizing the overwhelming majority of Jews who are left, Zionist, anti-Netanyahu, pro-two states as "the bad Jews," and have helped mainstream among the left threatening and being violent against Jews. We fucking hate Netanyahu and want him gone for many reasons, including unwillingness to negotiate with the PA after 2014 (granted, even Kerry acknowledged he was willing to go far to make a deal), but no Israel leader left, center, or right would have neglected to go hard after Hamas in Gaza. There are aspects that would be different, perhaps more non-fuel aid would have continued, more clamping down on the violent among Jews in the WB, perhaps an attempt at a bit more precision in targeting buildings Hamas is using or operating near, but the left and center could not do much more to protect civilians while fighting a terror group that steals from its people and uses them as shields. That is a total fantasy many here have. Edited November 12, 2023 by Bael's Bastard Mr. Chatywin et al. and Caligula_K3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Israel's most right wing leader was responsible for handing control of the WB to Arafat and accepted 67 borders as the framework for peace negotiations, while Palestine's most moderate leader continues to engage in denial of the Holocaust and Jewish history in the land of Israel/Palestine and pays Palestinians and the families of Palestinians who commit terror attacks. Antizionists will blame all of this on Jews, on the blockade, on 67, on 48, on anything except a century of Arab rejection of Jews having self-determination in part of their indigenous homeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-one-potential-hostage-deal-would-see-hamas-israel-release-women-and-minors/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 11 hours ago, Zorral said: I kept a certain cynicism as to the stories of babies deliberated beheaded, while now I have no trouble at all believing the horror stories out of Gaza of what's happening to babies. What is different here? Scratching my head as to why someone would say this, to be honest. I hate what Israel is doing in Gaza but why express skepticism regarding the Oct 7 atrocities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dando Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Heartofice said: I also think the view of Jews as ‘white’ does affect how certain people position themselves in this issue. I never came upon people who saw Jews as exclusively "white", although one could argue that Zionism, with its roots in European socialist and nationalist movements, is "white". Apart from the fact that in the minds of many early Zionists the idea of the Orient as the Other prevailed, whiteness in this context brings no further insight. 2 hours ago, Ran said: Really silly 2 hours ago, Heartofice said: Really messes with the coloniser narrative too A basic understanding of settler colonialism and Israeli history is advantageous here. Just read: https://www.972mag.com/mizrahim-right-wing-ashkenazi-supremacy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-one-potential-hostage-deal-would-see-hamas-israel-release-women-and-minors/ And on cue, Hamas "suspends" talks along these lines because Israel's "activities" around Shifa. Kind of shows how desperate they are to keep Shifa out of Israel's control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Netanyahu claimed on Meet the Press that Israel offered Al Shifa hospital fuel, but that they refused it. Quote “We offered actually, last night, to give them enough fuel to operate the hospital, operate the incubators and so on, because we have, obviously, no battle with patients or civilians at all,” he told host Kristen Welker. “They refused it,” he added after he was pressed on the matter. It's not clear who the offer was made to. Hamas or directly to the hospital? And whether any conditions were attached. I have a hard time though believing that an unconditional offer of fuel was made directly to the hospital and was refused by the hospital. That just doesn't make any sense. Story just broke a little while ago, so maybe more information about this offer will come out. Maybe the offer was made to Hamas as part of the hostage negotiation. I could see that type of offer being refused. Seems like damage control after reports that babies and patients are now dying after the hospital has shut down from lack of fuel. It's also inconsistent with President Herzog's claim that Al Shifa has electricity and everything is operational: Quote Herzog: Hamas is lying about Al Shifa hospital power outages Israel’s president Isaac Herzog has denied that the Al Shifa hospital in Gaza City has no power. “That is not true,” he told the BBC’s Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg programme. “There is a lot of spin by Hamas. There is electricity in Shifa, everything is operating.” President Herzog added that the IDF is in touch with managers at the hospital and repeated Israel’s claim that Hamas has its headquarters beneath the building. Why would you offer to give them fuel if you believe that they have power and everything is operational. Maybe Herzog failed to get the memo that Israel was changing it's story about the lack of fuel. Does anyone believe this claim by Herzog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ran said: And on cue, Hamas "suspends" talks along these lines because Israel's "activities" around Shifa. Kind of shows how desperate they are to keep Shifa out of Israel's control. I don't think that's it. Obviously, Shifa is lost, whether it's the HQ or not. There is no chance to keep it out of Israel's control. Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Shifa clearly has some degree of power, as there are big flood lights that were running all night, and some footage from inside that I think dates from yesterday showed lights on. But it's probably also the case that there are wards or buildings that need separate generators, and they have been turning these off "for lack of fuel" since Hamas isn't giving it to them. If Israel offered fuel, it was almost certainly with caveats, and that that's why it was rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ran said: Shifa clearly has some degree of power, as there are big flood lights that were running all night, and some footage from inside that I think dates from yesterday showed lights on. But it's probably also the case that there are wards or buildings that need separate generators, and they have been turning these off "for lack of fuel" since Hamas isn't giving it to them. If Israel offered fuel, it was almost certainly with caveats, and that that's why it was rejected. Are you sure those photos were taken from last night? Supposedly, they started running out of power then. I've seen a lot of stories use older photos taken a week or two before the date of the story. ETA: like this one of the electricity situation. The photo with the flood lights was taken on Friday before the power ran out. Edited November 12, 2023 by Mudguard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said: We fucking hate Netanyahu and want him gone for many reasons, including unwillingness to negotiate with the PA after 2014 (granted, even Kerry acknowledged he was willing to go far to make a deal), but no Israel leader left, center, or right would have neglected to go hard after Hamas in Gaza. There are aspects that would be different, perhaps more non-fuel aid would have continued, more clamping down on the violent among Jews in the WB, perhaps an attempt at a bit more precision in targeting buildings Hamas is using or operating near, but the left and center could not do much more to protect civilians while fighting a terror group that steals from its people and uses them as shields. That is a total fantasy many here have. These sound like pretty major things for a government to get right, so it is absolutely fair to criticize the Israeli government for their actions. Your own desire to minimize the significance of settler violence, dead civilians, and denying a captive populace food and water is pretty telling of your own bias, so as much as you'd like to make it so, you are not the arbiter of valid criticismd. Eventually crying anti-Semite at everyone who disagrees with you just gets you tuned out. Edited November 12, 2023 by DanteGabriel Daeron the Daring, Matrim Fox Cauthon, Craving Peaches and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, Mudguard said: Are you sure those photos were taken from last night? Supposedly, they started running out of power then. I've seen a lot of stories use older photos taken a week or two before the date of the story. ETA: like this one of the electricity situation. The photo with the flood lights was taken on Friday before the power ran out. The AFP's live stream that ran all day yesterday has the Shifa complex just to the right edge, and it was floodlit all night. I kept checking in, from what I could see. They seem to have streamed for a few hours today from the same spot, and then cut and now are showing... I'm not sure where, not Gaza clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Israel says that the the people evacuating to the south it attacked were Hamas members. Quote The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) did fire on people evacuating northern Gaza for the south, but this is because they were members of Hamas, IDF spokesperson Lt Col Richard Hecht has told the BBC. Source: BBC There is no proof as of now as far as I can tell that they were Hamas members. Nor is there proof that the ambulance convoy they bombed was being used by Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 34 minutes ago, Ran said: The AFP's live stream that ran all day yesterday has the Shifa complex just to the right edge, and it was floodlit all night. I kept checking in, from what I could see. They seem to have streamed for a few hours today from the same spot, and then cut and now are showing... I'm not sure where, not Gaza clearly. Yeah, you are right that there is some electricity there. Went to BBC to try and find info on your post about attack on the people evacuating south, and found this. Quote We posted earlier about the dozens of newborn babies being cared for at the Al-Shifa hospital and attempts to move them amid a near-complete power cut. The babies had been on the maternity ward, where the incubators are located - but the building has reportedly been bombarded, and doctors say there's no longer enough electricity to power the incubators. The situation in Gaza has made it difficult to get more information about what is happening in the hospital, but Reuters has reported more details about the care the newborns are receiving. It says 10 of them are being cared for on a bed and that an air conditioner is being used to provide warmth. An image sent to Reuters shows two beds with rows of babies lying on them - some of them in swaddle blankets, others in only nappies. Dr Ahmed, a doctor at the hospital, told Reuters that the conditions in which the babies were being kept could cause them to develop infections or sepsis. “We are expecting to lose more of them day by day,” he said. But apparently not enough to run everything. I've noticed these types of discrepancies in other reports as well, such as the numbers of people still at Al Shifa. Some reports say 1500, some say all those left and just the 500 people being treated and some staff remain. It's hard to completely trust any of the breaking news reports right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 9 hours ago, Ran said: You are pro-Palestinian. At least you recognize I am not pro-Hamas. But the point I'm trying to make is that the reports about the babies in the hospitals in Gaza are eye witness from medical personnel. Some due to bombing and other military attacks, which nobody can deny is occurring relentlessly -- and is affecting all sorts of civilians with death and maiming and lack of treatment. Nor have I denied any of the atrocities committed on Oct. 7 by Hamas, and I decry and condemn them -- except the accusations of deliberate beheading of babies, which is all too familiar a propaganda tactic by so many, since at least the first World War, and Yemen put a cherry on that with their PR constructed videos to show to the US Congress to get the US to go to war on Iran. Any intelligent person who knows history will go there. It's time for people to stop playing the same old cards of any criticism of Israel ruling cohorts and the IDF actions as antisemitism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said: These sound like pretty major things for a government to get right, so it is absolutely fair to criticize the Israeli government for their actions. Your own desire to minimize the significance of settler violence, dead civilians, and denying a captive populace food and water is pretty telling of your own bias, so as much as you'd like to make it so, you are not the arbiter of valid criticismd. Eventually crying anti-Semite at everyone who disagrees with you just gets you tuned out. Critism of the Likhud government is absolutely legitimate. They love Hamas because Hamas gives Likhud more power. That said those attempting to claim all Israelis are legitimate military targets, that Hamas was correct to attack Israel the way it did, or who are pulling down posters of kidnapped Israeli civilians are, in my earnest opinion, turds of the highest order. Edited November 12, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 5 hours ago, LynnS said: We can't turn a blind eye to the beheading of infants and burning people alive. Which apparently didn't happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Hagari just came out with a briefing again emphasizing that there's no "siege" of Al-Shafi Hospital at this time, and the staff at the hospital requested the IDF help evacuate babies tomorrow, which the IDF will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 48 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Which apparently didn't happen It’s almost irrelevant, they killed babies, just because they didn’t behead them doesn’t make them any better. Not sure why the point keeps coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 Has anyone seen this piece in The New Yorker? The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state. https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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