Bad Worldbuilding in ASoIaF

[The hairy bear]

On 11/12/2023 at 7:47 PM, James Steller said:

The Manderlys, presumably? Plus the North would have been trading with the southern regions for centuries. Otherwise what’s the benefit of House Frey’s bridge?

Never in history has a kingdom changed its language because they traded with another one. It'S something that just wouldn't happen.

The Manderlys also do not work as a justification. The refugees that arrived could have amounted, at the very most to a 5% of the population of the North. They can't be enough to change the language of the rest of the population.

Edited November 14, 2023 by The hairy bear

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

First, yes, he did make claims for realism:

https://ew.com/article/2015/06/03/george-rr-martin-thrones-violence-women/

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6040/

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1432/

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1176

 

Excellent post, thank you, and I will come back to it.

But just for now - inspirations are not promises, and realism is not what you can expect after reading the early chapters of the books.

[SeanF]

WRT Slavers' Bay, I think Martin has taken various features of slave societies, and thrown them together, in order to create a place that resembles Mordor.

In terms of climate (arid, but not desert) it resembles North Africa, Southern Spain, Sicily, the Eastern Mediterranean.  The two big rivers (Worm and Skahadhadzan) enable crops to be grown successfully, like the Nile delta.

The huge ratio of slave to free is precedented, in places like St. Domingue, other sugar colonies, Sparta, parts of the Black Belt in the Deep South, parts of Italy and Sicily in the First century BC.  The degree of cruelty that is needed to keep so many slaves in subjection is plausible.  However, as @Aldarionpoints out, the free people in such societies have to be heavily militarised, to keep the slaves down.  Sparta made every adult male citizen a soldier; St. Domingue had a big militia, among petits blancs; and free men of colour; the South had the Slave Patrols, the latifundia of Italy had bucellarii, and professional slave catchers and torturers.  And, every Roman male citizen was liable for conscription, even if the army was gradually professionalising at this point.

We see such militarisation with the people of New Ghis, and perhaps with the free people of Meereen, who do after all, put up a fierce defence of their city, and organise the Sons of the Harpy.  But, the Good Masters of Astapor, and the Wise Masters of Yunkai are useless drones.  They ought to have been overthrown by their slaves long ago, especially as they rely upon slave soldiers.

Slave trading seems to form too big a part of the economy.  A more plausible slave economy would have the slaves working to grow food and cash crops, mining, and quarrying, and dying under the lash, and being replaced by fresh stock.  Some people would make money from the slave trade, but it couldn't be the foundation of an entire economy.

The Unsullied ought really to have overthrown the Good Masters of Astapor, and to have set up their own Sultanate, as should the Tiger Soldiers of Volantis, or alternatively, the masters would have to bid for their support.  Soldiers rapidly develop a loyalty to comrades which overrides other loyalties.

The Sons of the Harpy most clearly resemble the original KKK, IMHO, and Dany's problems somewhat resemble the problems of Reconstruction.  

[sifth]

I still find it funny that GRRM constantly makes jokes about Aragorn’s tax policy in LOtR’s, yet completely fails at the economics of his own universe. How many gold dragons was Sandor carrying through the River Lands again, lol

Edited November 13, 2023 by sifth

[Phylum of Alexandria]

It's been said many times before, but GRRM's take on religion really leaves something to be desired. He's thankfully a lot more thoughtful than D&D proved to be (believer = cray cray zealot!), but this is one of the major world building holes for me. Even if Westeros has evolved into a more secular type of place than real world medieval and Renaissance culture, there should at least be a more interesting and involved history of the Faith that gave way to and still shades the present day institutions and customs.

[Jaenara Belarys]

21 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

It's been said many times before, but GRRM's take on religion really leaves something to be desired.

I'm curious why no one ever tried to crusade to the Hills of Andalos to reclaim that land. We've never (IIRC) even heard of rumblings of people wanting a crusade, or a High Septon trying to use it to unite the kingdoms for a common cause. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm curious why no one ever tried to crusade to the Hills of Andalos to reclaim that land. We've never (IIRC) even heard of rumblings of people wanting a crusade, or a High Septon trying to use it to unite the kingdoms for a common cause. 

Also, no significant tensions or outright conflicts between the Maesters and the Faith in all of Westerosi history? Lots of potential content there ripe for exploring, but it's a blank.

[Lord Varys]

When reading up on modern Chinese history recently, I actually stumbled on the claim that in the Republic/Warlord era many 'soldiers' in various Chinese armies were chained together for battle. Some things are so silly you think George made them up ... but they might not be, after all.

I honestly think the bigger worldbuilding joke is the longevity of the feudal society of Westeros, the fact that it remained as static as it appears to be, on every level, is just not believable.

It is painstakingly obvious in retrospect that the world has no historical depth at all when you reread AGoT these days. Biggest legacy of that is the fact that George has, so far, not fleshed out the reign and court of Robert Baratheon. We do have background for plot relevant stuff like the reign of Aerys II and even earlier things ... but Robert's reign is very much irrelevant plot-wise, aside from Littlefinger's rise, so we know effectively nothing about that. But, in fact, in the real world and a realistic setting the ambitions and feuds of Robert's courtiers would (likely) play a bigger role in political schemes than the old revenge plots from 1-2 generations ago everybody seems to care so much about.

Think about it - who are Littlefinger's predecessors as Master of Coin? If they were sacked aren't they or their families pissed? And who was passed over for the social climber Petyr Baelish? Aren't they pissed, too? Or whoever hoped to gain Renly's office?

The lack of bureaucracy is a narrative problem as we don't see the members of that class as part of the political schemes we see depicted on other levels. And its lack in depiction makes it utterly ridiculous that anyone north of the Neck, south of the Mander, or east of the Mountains of the Moon would give a damn about what some king in KL said - because those kings never had nor do they have the power depicted they would need to show to wield the kind of authority they do.

It just doesn't work. And sadly, it also doesn't work in the dragon age - there it gets much worse with dragonless Viserys I being the most powerful Targaryen king.

This monarchy wouldn't work work without some kind of standing army and a royal bureaucracy watching the dealings of all the lords throughout the Realm. Without that, it is utter insanity that anyone ever actually does pay any taxes.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Also, no significant tensions or outright conflicts between the Maesters and the Faith in all of Westerosi history? Lots of potential content there ripe for exploring, but it's a blank.

The Citadel is pretty much a joke. No king in Westeros outside the Reach would employ any before the Conquest - or at least no king whose kingdom is bordering the Reach or is likely to war with the Reach in the future. Also, the Citadel would not encourage or accept students from other kingdoms in favor of actual Reach men. They would be foreigners in Oldtown.

When Aegon conquered Westeros he would have founded his own 'academy' run and overseen by his people. The idea that he would exert no control over the institution he takes tutors and healers and advisers at his own court makes little to no sense.

It could make sense if the Conclave included a representative of the Crown who nominally ran the Citadel without (necessarily) interfering with the studies.

[SeanF]

@Lord VarysTensions must have been rising for some time.  Tywin launches his invasion of the Riverlands, with 35,000 men, the moment he hears of Tyrion's arrest.  But, in reality, an army that size would have taken months to get ready.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm curious why no one ever tried to crusade to the Hills of Andalos to reclaim that land. We've never (IIRC) even heard of rumblings of people wanting a crusade, or a High Septon trying to use it to unite the kingdoms for a common cause. 

Is anybody even there? Andalos just happens to fade out of history after the Andals head to Westeros.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

@Lord VarysTensions must have been rising for some time.  Tywin launches his invasion of the Riverlands, with 35,000 men, the moment he hears of Tyrion's arrest.  But, in reality, an army that size would have taken months to get ready.

Plus where does he get the Brave Companions from? They’re an over seas company of sell swords. Did Tywin have them on retainer or are we led to believe there is a massive time skip where Tywin sends for them in the first book.

[Jaenara Belarys]

42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Is anybody even there? Andalos just happens to fade out of history after the Andals head to Westeros.

No, but that would make it even easier. Pentos might've gotten involved because Andalos seems to be their hinterlands. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I guess my biggest complaint is just the Dothraki. They make no sense. They wear no armor, and I'm meant to believe they wouldn't be decimated by archers in....any walled city, which most of the Free Cities, ....are walled. Like...what exactly is stopping the arrows, do they have the most agile horses of all history who can dodge arrows? Also, the number of the Dothraki makes no sense. Real life nomadic herders existed in relatively small numbers...because they were nomadic herders. Agriculture is a key necessity to the explosion of human populations seen in large civilizations of the past. And as well, we see (as shown through Dany's eyes) that Dothraki are extremely violent. Warrior death rates would be extremely high, as they are essentially in perpetual war from what I can tell. As well, they don't seem to use medical healers on the same level as in the Free Cities or Westeros...yet again, disease is not ravishing them when they are in this near constant state of conflict? I mean, heck, they kill each other for...fun? at Dany's wedding. Honestly, I thought that was the most ridiculous thing in the entire books. I just don't know how a nomadic herding society could possibly sustain themselves if they were murdering each other ...any time they had a party...which was the only time they weren't in near perpetual war. Okay, I wrote too much. Sorry. Fun topic. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Development of languages in Westeros is off. The North would have no reason to speak the Common Tongue without the spread of the Faith. Even in those areas settled by Andals and following the Faith, there should be different dialects that are at least difficult for people not from that region to understand.

There should be....so many dialects. Like, every single Kingdom should have their own dialect, and then on top of that people from the hinterlands of that area should be hard to understand. I don't know how big Westeros is supposed to be exactly, but a quick search tells me there are 121 languages in India and 131-195 in the Philippines. Now, I did choose specifically two countries that I knew had a lot of languages....but that is how places not recently conquered and assimilated to some dominant culture usually are (the North was never really assimilated to southern culture, and neither were the Iron Islands completely assimilated to mainland culture. And of course Dorne had a whole other people show up, and apparently not only not leave an impact by having multiple languages spoken there..but not even a dialect developing). Even in China, a relatively (comparatively) homogenous culture that has continually been united as one state for a very long time has 8-10 dialects. 

However, I think GRRM did this to make things easier on himself honestly. Can you imagine how hard some parts would be if no one could understand each other, lol. Like, another one. Daenerys kind of flawlessly understands...everyone all the time in Essos, which seems.....highly unlikely, lol. There would be language issues even if she is a language genius, that just aren't discussed. But, again, I think this makes sense. Honestly, I'm okay with it. I don't particularly want to read about translators showing up constantly, lol, which would be necessary to make a lot of things work. Although I am now imaging Eddard with a thick and impossible to understand Sottish accent, and Cersei doesn't even know what he is saying half the time, so he gets away with it, lol. 

[Angel Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

There should be....so many dialects. Like, every single Kingdom should have their own dialect, and then on top of that people from the hinterlands of that area should be hard to understand. I don't know how big Westeros is supposed to be exactly, but a quick search tells me there are 121 languages in India and 131-195 in the Philippines. Now, I did choose specifically two countries that I knew had a lot of languages....but that is how places not recently conquered and assimilated to some dominant culture usually are (the North was never really assimilated to southern culture, and neither were the Iron Islands completely assimilated to mainland culture. And of course Dorne had a whole other people show up, and apparently not only not leave an impact by having multiple languages spoken there..but not even a dialect developing). Even in China, a relatively (comparatively) homogenous culture that has continually been united as one state for a very long time has 8-10 dialects. 

However, I think GRRM did this to make things easier on himself honestly. Can you imagine how hard some parts would be if no one could understand each other, lol. Like, another one. Daenerys kind of flawlessly understands...everyone all the time in Essos, which seems.....highly unlikely, lol. There would be language issues even if she is a language genius, that just aren't discussed. But, again, I think this makes sense. Honestly, I'm okay with it. I don't particularly want to read about translators showing up constantly, lol, which would be necessary to make a lot of things work. Although I am now imaging Eddard with a thick and impossible to understand Sottish accent, and Cersei doesn't even know what he is saying half the time, so he gets away with it, lol. 

Westeros is supposed to be about the size of South America, but just think of the dialects in just the US like different words for soda (soda, pop, cola, etc.) or sandwiches (heroes, hoagies, etc).

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Plus where does he get the Brave Companions from? They’re an over seas company of sell swords. Did Tywin have them on retainer or are we led to believe there is a massive time skip where Tywin sends for them in the first book.

My theory is Tywin was already preparing for war. But maybe I'm stretching. I think there is a solid reason to believe that Tywin always planned on taking power once Robert died though. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Westeros is supposed to be about the size of South America, but just think of the dialects in just the US like different words for soda (soda, pop, cola, etc.) or sandwiches (heroes, hoagies, etc).

There is only one correct word for each of those: soda and hoagie.

That is all.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I guess my biggest complaint is just the Dothraki. They make no sense. They wear no armor, and I'm meant to believe they wouldn't be decimated by archers in....any walled city, which most of the Free Cities, ....are walled. Like...what exactly is stopping the arrows, do they have the most agile horses of all history who can dodge arrows? Also, the number of the Dothraki makes no sense. Real life nomadic herders existed in relatively small numbers...because they were nomadic herders. Agriculture is a key necessity to the explosion of human populations seen in large civilizations of the past. And as well, we see (as shown through Dany's eyes) that Dothraki are extremely violent. Warrior death rates would be extremely high, as they are essentially in perpetual war from what I can tell. As well, they don't seem to use medical healers on the same level as in the Free Cities or Westeros...yet again, disease is not ravishing them when they are in this near constant state of conflict? I mean, heck, they kill each other for...fun? at Dany's wedding. Honestly, I thought that was the most ridiculous thing in the entire books. I just don't know how a nomadic herding society could possibly sustain themselves if they were murdering each other ...any time they had a party...which was the only time they weren't in near perpetual war. Okay, I wrote too much. Sorry. Fun topic. 

How about their eating horses when they shouldn't? At least the show implies they eat something other than horses.

https://acoup.blog/2020/12/11/collections-that-dothraki-horde-part-ii-subsistence-on-the-hoof/

Edited November 13, 2023 by Angel Eyes

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

When reading up on modern Chinese history recently, I actually stumbled on the claim that in the Republic/Warlord era many 'soldiers' in various Chinese armies were chained together for battle. Some things are so silly you think George made them up ... but they might not be, after all.

 

Chaining together ill-disciplined soldiers was rare, but not unknown. Battle of Chains is referred to as such because Sassanid soldiers in this battle were linked together with chains.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I honestly think the bigger worldbuilding joke is the longevity of the feudal society of Westeros, the fact that it remained as static as it appears to be, on every level, is just not believable.

 

Maybe. Societies were known to remain static for a very long time (see: China, Japan). But I do agree that Westeros has remained static for too long.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The lack of bureaucracy is a narrative problem as we don't see the members of that class as part of the political schemes we see depicted on other levels. And its lack in depiction makes it utterly ridiculous that anyone north of the Neck, south of the Mander, or east of the Mountains of the Moon would give a damn about what some king in KL said - because those kings never had nor do they have the power depicted they would need to show to wield the kind of authority they do.

It just doesn't work. And sadly, it also doesn't work in the dragon age - there it gets much worse with dragonless Viserys I being the most powerful Targaryen king.

This monarchy wouldn't work work without some kind of standing army and a royal bureaucracy watching the dealings of all the lords throughout the Realm. Without that, it is utter insanity that anyone ever actually does pay any taxes.

Agreed. Rather than feudal society, we should be looking at something akin to the Roman Empire.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

However, I think GRRM did this to make things easier on himself honestly. Can you imagine how hard some parts would be if no one could understand each other, lol. Like, another one. Daenerys kind of flawlessly understands...everyone all the time in Essos, which seems.....highly unlikely, lol. There would be language issues even if she is a language genius, that just aren't discussed. But, again, I think this makes sense. Honestly, I'm okay with it. I don't particularly want to read about translators showing up constantly, lol, which would be necessary to make a lot of things work. Although I am now imaging Eddard with a thick and impossible to understand Sottish accent, and Cersei doesn't even know what he is saying half the time, so he gets away with it, lol. 

Considering we are mostly dealing with nobility, that shouldn't be an issue at all. Up until relatively late, nobility of basically entire Europe used Latin as their lingua franca. So what is preventing Westeros from having dozens of languages while nobility all use High Valyrian?

And if you have High Valyrian being similarly prevalent in Essos, again, problem solved.