Israel - Hamas War X

[Luzifer's right hand]

Because I was interested I looked at some English language Thai sources and the number of Thais confirmed killed has grown to 39. 4 are still in Israeli hospitals.

25 are still held hostage.

https://www.thaipbsworld.com/five-more-thai-nationals-confirmed-to-have-died-in-israel/

A lot if not all of them were migrant workers btw not people killed at the rave.

It is sad to see once more that western media(social or not) tends to forget about Asian(and African or South American) victims of a tragedy asap.

Edit: On a sidenote the Thai government disapproves that the video of a Thai killed was shown at the UN and to journalists because that does not demonstrate proper respect and due consideration for the deceased and his family. I guess i understand why the Israelis chose that one because it seems to be one of the most grusome videos found according to descriptions(injured but alive man decapitated with a garden hoe by Hamas fighter while screaming Allahu Akbar)and it involves the killing of a person who could not be confused with a Jew.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[DireWolfSpirit]

Its really sick that you can go to the 177th page of this forum and see 3 of the first 6 threads archived from 15 years ago and they are over this same stupid conflict.

Absolutely no progress, its like the threads were from this week.

Edited November 13, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

25 are still held hostage.

Do you think enough is being done to try and free those hostages?

 

[Craving Peaches]

https://youtu.be/oECwF-zVt2U?si=_cqUyr1wzbYc1K8n (Warning: may find distressing!)

Does anyone know why this man in the occupied West Bank was being arrested? Or why they had to beat him in front of his family while doing so (it looks to me like he is being kicked while on the ground in the video)?

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Do you think enough is being done to try and free those hostages?

 

I believe Thailand has reached out to countries supporting Hamas. 

But much more powerful countries have failed getting their citizens released.

They are not dual citizens though unlike many other hostages with non-israeli citizenship.

Sanctioning Qatar might help to increase the pressure on Hamas leadership though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I believe, with regret and sadness, that a “two State solution” is the least bad option for dealing with the question of Palestine/Israel.  

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

[Liffguard]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I believe, with regret and sadness, that a “two State solution” is the least bad option for dealing with the question of Palestine/Israel.  

Unfortunately, I think the West Bank settlements probably render that solution non-viable (which, to be blunt, is a large part of the reason for the continued expansion of settlements).

At the very least, for it to be viable it would probably have to be premised on the removal of the settlers being the responsibility of the Israeli government, not the new Palestinian government. Otherwise you just end up with a new sectarian violence problem. But, again to be blunt, I don't think there's any way of removing them that doesn't cause as many or more problems than it solves (not to mention the inherent injustice and opportunity for abuse and atrocity in the forcible removal of so many people).

I think, for better or worse, the actions of the Israeli state itself have rendered a two-state solution mostly impossible. Which means a single state composed of free and equal people is the only viable solution consistent with justice.

Which of course doesn't mean that state of being will come about. It's entirely possible for an unjust scenario to continue.

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Liffguard said:

Which means a single state composed of free and equal people is the only viable solution consistent with justice.

 I think this is also equally impossible given the contradictory needs of Israelis and Palestinians. 

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I believe, with regret and sadness, that a “two State solution” is the least bad option for dealing with the question of Palestine/Israel.  

Apart from the fact it's inherently meant to maintain the hatred these 2 groups of people feel against each other, it'd also probably mean to blockade freedom of movement, and therefore a right to return for palestinians.

Not to mention that the process of creating two separate states would be arguably much more violent than a process of reconciliation for the two sides, as of now. It used to be not like that, but it's not the case anymore.

And I've seen the argument that it's impracrical because palestinians (as a whole) would rather live in a muslim state dominated by certain levels of religious law than a supposed secular democratic one. While that is true, I'd say it's hardly an argument against a one-state solution, because I don't think the entirety of the palestinian nation, a majority or a significant minority would rather endure their current conditions instead of peace and prosperity in a secular democracy.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Unfortunately, I think the West Bank settlements probably render that solution non-viable (which, to be blunt, is a large part of the reason for the continued expansion of settlements).

At the very least, for it to be viable it would probably have to be premised on the removal of the settlers being the responsibility of the Israeli government, not the new Palestinian government. Otherwise you just end up with a new sectarian violence problem. But, again to be blunt, I don't think there's any way of removing them that doesn't cause as many or more problems than it solves (not to mention the inherent injustice and opportunity for abuse and atrocity in the forcible removal of so many people).

I think, for better or worse, the actions of the Israeli state itself have rendered a two-state solution mostly impossible. Which means a single state composed of free and equal people is the only viable solution consistent with justice.

Which of course doesn't mean that state of being will come about. It's entirely possible for an unjust scenario to continue.

Israel forcibly removed settlers from both Sinai and Gaza.  There is no reason it cannot do the same from the West Bank.

[Bael's Bastard]

11 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Unfortunately, I think the West Bank settlements probably render that solution non-viable (which, to be blunt, is a large part of the reason for the continued expansion of settlements).

At the very least, for it to be viable it would probably have to be premised on the removal of the settlers being the responsibility of the Israeli government, not the new Palestinian government. Otherwise you just end up with a new sectarian violence problem. But, again to be blunt, I don't think there's any way of removing them that doesn't cause as many or more problems than it solves (not to mention the inherent injustice and opportunity for abuse and atrocity in the forcible removal of so many people).

I think, for better or worse, the actions of the Israeli state itself have rendered a two-state solution mostly impossible. Which means a single state composed of free and equal people is the only viable solution consistent with justice.

Which of course doesn't mean that state of being will come about. It's entirely possible for an unjust scenario to continue.

The majority of Jews in the WB are in settlements near Jerusalem on a very small percentage of land, and Israel's negotiation position has long been that there would be swaps from inside Israel for those settlements. The deeper settlements where a minority of Jews are would have to be evacuated or absorbed by Palestine depending on negotiations. It is absolutely doable, even if it would be painful. It would be less painful than trying to dismantle Israel for one state that would quickly become hostile to Jews.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And I've seen the argument that it's impracrical because palestinians (as a whole) would rather live in a muslim state dominated by certain levels of religious law than a supposed secular democratic one. While that is true, I'd say it's hardly an argument against a one-state solution, because I don't think the entirety of the palestinian nation, a majority or a significant minority would rather endure their current conditions instead of peace and prosperity in a secular democracy.

 

Looking at this realisticly… do you believe a majority Muslim Arab State in Palestine would respect the right of Jews to emigrate to that new State?  That the Muslim Arab majority State would respect the religious practices of religious minorities in the newly created State?

If yes, why?

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Israel forcibly removed settlers from both Sinai and Gaza.  There is no reason it cannot do the same from the West Bank.

But would Israel do it? Would it be willing to do it, when Netanyahu and his cronies have been nothing but openly supportive of these settlements? I know, Netanyahu won't last as PM but how long that is no one knows. And even when someone better becomes PM, who can say whether they'll support something like this? Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done, these are just questions I keep asking myself. 

And I keep going back to this ridiculous idea of getting groups of citizens from both sides of the conflict and getting them in a nice room and locking the door until they reach a consensus, leaving governments/rulers, legitimate or not, outside w/ no say in the matter. Sort of like the papal conclave. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But would Israel do it? Would it be willing to do it, when Netanyahu and his cronies have been nothing but openly supportive of these settlements? I know, Netanyahu won't last as PM but how long that is no one knows. And even when someone better becomes PM, who can say whether they'll support something like this? Mind you, I'm not saying it can't be done, these are just questions I keep asking myself. 

And I keep going back to this ridiculous idea of getting groups of citizens from both sides of the conflict and getting them in a nice room and locking the door until they reach a consensus, leaving governments/rulers, legitimate or not, outside w/ no say in the matter. Sort of like the papal conclave. 

Likhud and Netanyahu suck.  There have been significant protests against Likhud and Netanyahu for months in Israel before the Hamas attack.  Likhud appears to oppose a two State solution and wants to keep Palestinians in squalor.  Hence I support the protests against Likhud and hope it falls from power soon.

We should build a “thunderdome” and for all members of Hamas and Likhud to duke it out in a battle royal.  Then jail the survivors for their crimes.

 

[Daeron the Daring]

12 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Looking at this realisticly… do you believe a majority Muslim Arab State in Palestine would respect the right of Jews to emigrate to that new State?  That the Muslim Arab majority State would respect the religious practices of religious minorities in the newly created State?

If yes, why?

Because muslims are human beings as well, hence why they are capable of it like anybody else? And because there are more than enough countries like that to make that argument? And because palestinians, like every other nation/ethnicity, are not a monolith that think all the same, and because such a soultion wouldn't dismantle the economic dominance of a would-be supposed jewish minority?

Edited November 13, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Likhud and Netanyahu suck.

So so hard. As you said yesterday, they and Hamas feed off of each other and help each other. 

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 There have been significant protests against Likhud and Netanyahu for months in Israel before the Hamas attack.  Likhud appears to oppose a two State solution and wants to keep Palestinians in squalor.  Hence I support the protests against Likhud and hope it falls from power soon.

Ditto. The extremists on both sides encourage hatred of the "Others", they need that to keep people supporting them b/c the reality is, they have nothing to offer. Nothing to improve people's lives, so let's make everyone fearful, angry and full of hate b/c then they're less likely to notice that we're not doing anything for them.

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

We should build a “thunderdome” and for all members of Hamas and Likhud to duke it out in a battle royal.  Then jail the survivors for their crimes.

I like it. And let reasonable people from both sides sit down and talk it through. I know this won't ever happen and I also know there's no easy fix for such a delicate and complex situation. The point I'm trying to make is that I believe the average non-fanatical individual on both sides of this conflict just want to live their lives in peace and are not hellbent on destroying the other as a life objective. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

18 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Because muslims are human beings as well, hence why they are capable of it like anybody else? And because there are more than enough countries like that to make that argument? And because palestinians, like every other nation/ethnicity, are not a monolith that think all the same, and because such a soultion wouldn't dismantle the economic dominance of a would-be supposed jewish minority?

How are Christian and Jewish Minorities doing in Egypt?  Jordan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Yemen?

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Heartofice]

19 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Because muslims are human beings as well, hence why they are capable of it like anybody else? 

This just seems naive and completely disregards generations of anti-israeli hatred, indoctrination and built up antisemitism. 
 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

This just seems naive and completely disregards generations of anti-israeli hatred, indoctrination and built up antisemitism. 
 

In fairness Likhud is stoking and playing on anti-Arab hatred, indoctrination, and Islamophobia.