Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

Great news, now lets extend that indefinitely and start figuring out what to do with the hundreds of thousand of displaced people who have no homes to return to. 

Apparently 'bomb them more' is an acceptable answer

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Relic said:

now lets extend that indefinitely

Has Hamas surrendered and I haven't heard about it?

[Relic]

Just now, Ran said:

Has Hamas surrendered and I haven't heard about it?

are you asking questions you already know the answer to?

 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Has Hamas surrendered and I haven't heard about it?

Hopefully Biden's plummeting poll numbers mean that his admin is applying pressure to the current (and hopefully soon to be ex) Israeli government to wrap this shit up. After which, what should be done with the displaced? Has any one given any thought to that? Who is going to rebuild what Israeli bombs gave destroyed? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

There's also this little problem that Hamas can't account for a lot of hostages. 

[Relic]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

There's also this little problem that Hamas can't account for a lot of hostages. 

not to be callous, but they're probably dead. Which is totally on the shoulders of Hamas, since they kidnaped them to begin with, and then issued an ultimatum (stop bombing or we kill hostages) which this current Israeli gov ignored. 

[Kalbear]

17 minutes ago, Relic said:

not to be callous, but they're probably dead. Which is totally on the shoulders of Hamas, since they kidnaped them to begin with, and then issued an ultimatum (stop bombing or we kill hostages) which this current Israeli gov ignored. 

Maybe. A possibly more hopeful story is that a number of them escaped. A few of the hostages have reported that their tale involved getting taken, escaping (one because the location that they were in got bombed, oopsie) and then getting caught again. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

^^^^Geezus, talk about harrowing.

Im so glad theyve survived all that.

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, Relic said:

Hopefully Biden's plummeting poll numbers mean that his admin is applying pressure to the current (and hopefully soon to be ex) Israeli government to wrap this shit up. After which, what should be done with the displaced? Has any one given any thought to that? Who is going to rebuild what Israeli bombs gave destroyed? 

In all seriousness I think there's a very good chance that the answer given by the Israeli government will be 'no one'. 

No one will rebuild. Gaza should be left underpopulated and if the people of Gaza don't like that, they should go somewhere else. Israel can claim that any construction equipment may be used to build tunnels again, and they are simply not going to allow that. Israel will happily help Palestinians leave and negotiate deals with other nations to take these refugees for humanitarian reasons, of course.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

not to be callous, but they're probably dead. Which is totally on the shoulders of Hamas, since they kidnaped them to begin with, and then issued an ultimatum (stop bombing or we kill hostages) which this current Israeli gov ignored. 

I've said from the beginning the assumption should be they're dead until they've been returned. The lack of proof of life should be the red flag. If they're dead most probably died in the first few days, so I wouldn't corollate Israeli strikes with causing many deaths to the hostages. Obviously they've killed way, way too many innocent civilians, but you kind of have to decompartmentalize those two awful things. 

As to rebuilding Gaza, this is why I've said for weeks even though it's not popular is that Israel should absorb Gaza and in exchange make the WB a new Palestinian state. Or have Egypt take it over. It's hard to see how any other decision doesn't end in spending a ton of money to rebuild it only for us to be back in the same place in a few years. 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

I've said from the beginning the assumption should be they're dead until they've been returned. The lack of proof of life should be the red flag.

It's really not. Between a war zone and not wanting to reveal locations of them it's pretty easy to justify it. 

And as we've seen quite a few appear to be alive; it would be a very weird coincidence if somehow of all the hostages the majority of deaths were non-women and non-children. 

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

As to rebuilding Gaza, this is why I've said for weeks even though it's not popular is that Israel should absorb Gaza and in exchange make the WB a new Palestinian state. Or have Egypt take it over. It's hard to see how any other decision doesn't end in spending a ton of money to rebuild it only for us to be back in the same place in a few years. 

Egypt doesn't want it, Israel doesn't want it, and the people living there don't want to leave. Other than that it's an excellent plan. 

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As to rebuilding Gaza, this is why I've said for weeks even though it's not popular is that Israel should absorb Gaza and in exchange make the WB a new Palestinian state.

Is there any chance of this happening though? Because I don't think this Israeli government would ever agree to this, not in a million years. I could be wrong, sure, but just the reports coming out of the WB seem to go against this idea.

There are, for instance, reports that Israel has arrested as many Palestinians in the WB as they released in the swap. I don't know if that is true, but I won't be surprised at all if it is confirmed at some point, b/c IMO it fits perfectly w/ Netanyahu's MO. 

There's also stuff like this (El Pais)

Quote

Israel arrests and expels Gazan patients seeking treatment in the West Bank

Police operations against people with diseases as serious as cancer have taken place on the streets, hotels, and even in hospitals in East Jerusalem

Abdallah Nabil, a 24-year-old Gazan, in the Ramallah hotel where he is staying after being detained and expelled from Israel.

What may have been Abdallah Nabil’s only chance of surviving his colon cancer vanished on October 9. The 24-year-old had run out of tissues, so he decided to go and buy some, leaving the Makassed Hospital in East Jerusalem — the Palestinian part of the Israeli-occupied city — where he was awaiting surgery to remove the tumor. On his way back, he ran into “an Israeli settler accompanied by some children,” who started beating him, he says. Hospital security called the police, but when Israeli officers arrived and saw on his ID card that Nabil was from Gaza, they told him: “You are a Hamas terrorist” and arrested him, he recounts in a modest hotel in the West Bank city of Ramallah, where he is staying.

"I told the policemen I was in the hospital for cancer, but they wouldn’t even let me pick up my medical documents,” he says. This emaciated young man recounts how the officers took him to a police station where they beat him up, causing him to “bleed internally.” 

 

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-11-27/israel-arrests-and-expels-gazan-patients-seeking-treatment-in-the-west-bank.html

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's really not. Between a war zone and not wanting to reveal locations of them it's pretty easy to justify it. 

They couldn't provide much info before Gaza turned into a warzone, and the worry is many hostages were taken by third parties.

Quote

And as we've seen quite a few appear to be alive; it would be a very weird coincidence if somehow of all the hostages the majority of deaths were non-women and non-children. 

We don't even know how close to half of them are doing with mixed reports from those that were released how they were treated. I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far I'm not seeing much that suggests there will be a happy ending for the hostages and I worry that will cause these right wing fuckers in Israel to begin bombing again.

Quote

Egypt doesn't want it, Israel doesn't want it, and the people living there don't want to leave. Other than that it's an excellent plan. 

Well there is the problem. The only people who want it can't rebuild it and are run by a group who likes getting them bombed for their own reasons. Something massive has to change. 

[Mudguard]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I've said from the beginning the assumption should be they're dead until they've been returned. The lack of proof of life should be the red flag. If they're dead most probably died in the first few days, so I wouldn't corollate Israeli strikes with causing many deaths to the hostages. Obviously they've killed way, way too many innocent civilians, but you kind of have to decompartmentalize those two awful things. 

This really makes no sense.  If you assume that everyone is dead, what is the point in engaging in hostage negotiations?  For the return of dead bodies?  Zero chance that Israel would have negotiated if everyone was already dead.  I understand not wanting to get your hopes up and setting expectations low, but that's way too extreme of an assumption.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is there any chance of this happening though? Because I don't think this Israeli government would ever agree to this, not in a million years. I could be wrong, sure, but just the reports coming out of the WB seem to go against this idea.

No, there is next to no chance, especially now. That's one of the underlying problems of this long conflict I've talked about, both sides want to dominate the other. Until that changes there won't be a path to peace and even if it does there's only a list of mixed options for each side to consider.

Quote

There are, for instance, reports that Israel has arrested as many Palestinians in the WB as they released in the swap. I don't know if that is true, but I won't be surprised at all if it is confirmed at some point, b/c IMO it fits perfectly w/ Netanyahu's MO. 

No, it wouldn't be surprising. Israel's behavior in the WB has been shameful. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

This really makes no sense.  If you assume that everyone is dead, what is the point in engaging in hostage negotiations?  For the return of dead bodies?  Zero chance that Israel would have negotiated if everyone was already dead.  I understand not wanting to get your hopes up and setting expectations low, but that's way too extreme of an assumption.

I said assume most are dead because they're not going to kill everyone, but without proof of life it's wise to assume the worst and hope for the best. And yes the Israelis badly want the dead bodies back. Jews, especially if they're religious, have pretty strict practices when dealing with the dead. 

[Kalbear]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

We don't even know how close to half of them are doing with mixed reports from those that were released how they were treated. I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far I'm not seeing much that suggests there will be a happy ending for the hostages and I worry that will cause these right wing fuckers in Israel to begin bombing again.

I don't think that there is going to be anything that they can do to stop the bombing any time soon. Israel has not seen particular pushback on doing so and they only see benefits in killing thousands of people and reducing Gaza to rubble. It probably even helps Netanyahu's party and the other right-wing parties in more electoral terms. 

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well there is the problem. The only people who want it can't rebuild it and are run by a group who likes getting them bombed for their own reasons. Something massive has to change. 

No, it really doesn't. The Israeli government is fine with this; the only problem was that it made the current people in power look bad. Bombing Palestinians while no one is particularly threatening war or any other issues for Israel is not a problem, any more than it's a problem for Russia to bomb Ukraine or Syria to bomb Syrians. Hamas has been getting propped up by Iran and has enough support there to continue what they're doing, and they have enough internal support (especially now) that their cause isn't going to go away. The few other countries that could put pressure on Israel to do something have been lukewarm at best in their efforts and there does not seem to be any real change either. 

Again, you sound a lot like Kushner and Trump in their proposal - that the Palestinians should take the offer because no one cares about them at all and they lost. 

[Zorral]

Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History (2018) by Nur Masalha.

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/palestine-9780755649426/

Quote

 

This rich and magisterial work traces Palestine's millennia-old heritage, uncovering cultures and societies of astounding depth and complexity that stretch back to the very beginnings of recorded history. Starting with the earliest references in Egyptian and Assyrian texts, Nur Masalha explores how Palestine and its Palestinian identity have evolved over thousands of years, from the Bronze Age to the present day. Drawing on a rich body of sources and the latest archaeological evidence, Masalha shows how Palestine's multicultural past has been distorted and mythologised by Biblical lore and the Israel-Palestinian conflict. In the process, Masalha reveals that the concept of Palestine, contrary to accepted belief, is not a modern invention or one constructed in opposition to Israel, but rooted firmly in ancient past. Palestine represents the authoritative account of the country's history.

Table of Contents
Introduction

1. The Philistines and Philistia as a Distinct Geo-political Entity: Late Bronze Age to 500 BC
2. The Conception of Palestine in Classical Antiquity and During the Hellenistic Empires (500?135 BC)
3. From Philistia to Provincia 'Syria Palaestina' (135 AD?390 AD): The Administrative Province of Roman Palestine
4. The (Three in One) Provincia Palaestina: The Three Administrative Provinces of Byzantine Palestine (4th?Early 7th Centuries AD)
5. Arab Christian Palestine: The Pre-Islamic Arab Kings, Bishops and Poets and Tribes of Provincia Palaestina (3rd?Early 7th Centuries AD)
6. The Arab Province of Jund Filastin (638?1099 AD): Continuities, Adaption and Transformation of Palestine under Islam
7. Between Egypt and al-Sham: Palestine during the Ayyubid, Mamluk and Early Ottoman Periods
8. Palestinian Statehood in the 18th Century: Early Modernities and Practical Sovereignty in Palestine
9. Being Palestine, Becoming Palestine: Rediscovery and New Representations of Modern Palestine and their Impact on Palestinian National Identity
10. Settler-colonialism and Disinheriting the Palestinians: The Appropriation of Palestinian Place Names by the Israeli State

 

The author's also written The Palestine Nakba: Decolonising History, Narrating the Subaltern, Reclaiming Memory (2012).

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/palestine-nakba-9781848139718/

Quote

 

2012 marks the 63rd anniversary of the Nakba - the most traumatic catastrophe that ever befell Palestinians. This book explores new ways of remembering and commemorating the Nakba. In the context of Palestinian oral history, it explores 'social history from below', subaltern narratives of memory and the formation of collective identity. Masalha argues that to write more truthfully about the Nakba is not just to practise a professional historiography but an ethical imperative. The struggles of ordinary refugees to recover and publicly assert the truth about the Nakba is a vital way of protecting their rights and keeping the hope for peace with justice alive.

This book is essential for understanding the place of the Palestine Nakba at the heart of the Israel-Palestine conflict and the vital role of memory in narratives of truth and reconciliation.

Table of Contents
Introduction
1. Zionism and European Settler-Colonialism
2. The Memoricide of the Nakba: Zionist-Hebrew Toponymy and the De-Arabisation of Palestine
3. Fashioning a European Landscape, Erasure and Amnesia: The Jewish National Fund, Afforestation, and Green-washing the Nakba
4. Appropriating History: The Looting of Palestinian Records, Archives and Library Collections (1948-2011)
5. New History, Post-Zionism, the Liberal Coloniser and Hegemonic Narratives: A Critique of the Israeli 'New Historians'
6. Decolonising History and Narrating the Subaltern: Palestinian Oral History, Indigenous and Gendered Memories
7. Resisting Memoricide and Reclaiming Memory: The Politics of Nakba Commemoration among Palestinians inside Israel
Epilogue: The Continuity of Trauma

 

 

[Mudguard]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I said assume most are dead because they're not going to kill everyone, but without proof of life it's wise to assume the worst and hope for the best. And yes the Israelis badly want the dead bodies back. Jews, especially if they're religious, have pretty strict practices when dealing with the dead. 

Why would they kill most?  Alive, they can trade the hostages for something valuable.  If Hamas killed the hostages in order to deter Israel from bombing Gaza, then they would have videotaped the executions and made it public in order to actually back up their previous threat.  The public pressure on Netanyahu to negotiate with Hamas would have been much greater if he wanted to claim that getting back the hostages was his top priority.  Killing a bunch of hostages in secret makes no sense.

I do think that there are some complete psychopaths in Hamas, so I wouldn't be surprised if some hostages were killed irrationally and against orders, but I'm hoping that number is low.

Right now, if all the remaining hostages were dead, the negotiations and ceasefire would immediately end and Israel would go back to destroying Hamas.  They would attempt to get the bodies back after they've finished with Hamas.

I think the opposite assumption, that all the hostages are alive until proven otherwise, make more sense, if the top priority is getting back as many of the hostages back alive as possible.  If other priorities are more important, like the destruction of Hamas, then sure, it probably makes more sense to assume that all or most are already dead, because, for example, you wouldn't have to worry about accidentally bombing any living hostages.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that there is going to be anything that they can do to stop the bombing any time soon. Israel has not seen particular pushback on doing so and they only see benefits in killing thousands of people and reducing Gaza to rubble. It probably even helps Netanyahu's party and the other right-wing parties in more electoral terms. 

I'd like to think that releasing all of the living hostages and returning the dead would have caused a pause or complete ceasefire sooner.

Quote

No, it really doesn't. The Israeli government is fine with this; the only problem was that it made the current people in power look bad. Bombing Palestinians while no one is particularly threatening war or any other issues for Israel is not a problem, any more than it's a problem for Russia to bomb Ukraine or Syria to bomb Syrians. Hamas has been getting propped up by Iran and has enough support there to continue what they're doing, and they have enough internal support (especially now) that their cause isn't going to go away. The few other countries that could put pressure on Israel to do something have been lukewarm at best in their efforts and there does not seem to be any real change either. 

Idk about that. Israel has taken a real hit in the West (there were always going to everywhere else, but they don't care about that). It seems like they've lost a lot of favor in Europe and it's declining in the US as well. I could be wrong, but much of the sympathy they gained in the wake of the attacks has evaporated and to be fair, rightly so for many. 

Quote

Again, you sound a lot like Kushner and Trump in their proposal - that the Palestinians should take the offer because no one cares about them at all and they lost. 

Two idiots can have a good idea now and then. And they're not wrong to believe others in the region give zero fucks about the Palestinians and are happy to let them suffer. At least what I'm suggesting has some sort of end goal with a manageable peace which is more that what most people are suggesting.