Israel - Hamas War XII

[Mudguard]

On 12/8/2023 at 3:51 PM, Tywin et al. said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/
 

 

Are you serious?  Your quote has nothing to do with the death rate since the resumption of war.  You aren't arguing in good faith, and it's obvious you care little for facts if they don't fit your narrative.  I've cited multiple reputable sources, and in response you take an out of context quote to make it seem like the death rate is now lower, when the quote actually has nothing to do with the death rate.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Are you serious?  Your quote has nothing to do with the death rate since the resumption of war.  You aren't arguing in good faith, and it's obvious you care little for facts if they don't fit your narrative.  I've cited multiple reputable sources, and in response you take an out of context quote to make it seem like the death rate is now lower, when the quote actually has nothing to do with the death rate.  

I literally went out of my way to cite something from the exact same news source you did, and in it they had a graph showing a massive one day leap that isn't explained with the numbers plateauing again. 

[fionwe1987]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But therein lies the problem. Israel should be held to a higher standard, but Hamas can't be held to none and most reasonable people I think would agree that a ceasefire in exchange for the hostages is fair. Instead Hamas wants a one sided ceasefire with no guarantee they'll give the hostages back and not attack again once they restock, so basically for a ceasefire without anything in return is doing exactly what Hamas wants and Israel isn't going to do that.  

That is not what anyone here is asking for. Israel does not have to give in to a ceasefire with no guarantees, or hostages.

But Israel also doesn't have to bomb indiscriminately. It doesn't have to quite literally salt the earth. It doesn't have to show such patent disregard to the humanitarian situation. It doesn't have to strip people naked and take pictures of them, even if they are worthless Hamas scum, and definitely not if they're regular Palestinian citizens. 

The space between Israel caving to Hamas's unreasonable demands and what it is doing is vast. But the OP and you pretend it is either surrender to Hamas or doing what Israel is currently doing. All that is is a convenient excuse for turning a blind eye to thousands of innocents dying. And no history of pain or trauma justifies that. 

What I find utterly contemptible is declaring that what is happening now is all Israel can do. To state that this isn't retaliation, just the "best" way to "end Hamas" whatever that even means when you take actions that will radicalize substantial portions of the populace... That's moronic and immoral. And I see the "but what about Hamas" argument to distract from Isreal's actions to be just that. Moronic and immoral. 

[TrueMetis]

Is "We don't care if they're killed as long as doing so doesn't involve killing thousands of innocent civilians or rendering Gaza uninhabitable" holding them to a high or low standard? Whine all you want about people not holding the IDF to the same standard as Hamas, but I've not seen anyone here call for the IDF's destruction or simply not care if it gets destroyed so any complaints about being held to different standards seems pretty pathetic in the face of that.

Edited December 10, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

That is not what anyone here is asking for. Israel does not have to give in to a ceasefire with no guarantees, or hostages.

Yet that was what Hamas demanded for weeks. Then they conceded giving back a few daily for one. Since then they've stopped releasing hostages again. If Israel maintained their end of the deal while Hamas didn't they would be giving in to them, and yes, some people here did want that. 

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But Israel also doesn't have to bomb indiscriminately. It doesn't have to quite literally salt the earth. It doesn't have to show such patent disregard to the humanitarian situation. It doesn't have to strip people naked and take pictures of them, even if they are worthless Hamas scum, and definitely not if they're regular Palestinian citizens. 

I'm sure pretty much everyone agrees here. You'd be hard pressed to find many people who think Israel is conducting their war effort well in myriad ways. 

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The space between Israel caving to Hamas's unreasonable demands and what it is doing is vast. But the OP and you pretend it is either surrender to Hamas or doing what Israel is currently doing. All that is is a convenient excuse for turning a blind eye to thousands of innocents dying. And no history of pain or trauma justifies that. 

It's not as vast as you might think. If Hamas refuses to give back more hostages a military option is probably the best one. Could they do a much better job? Of course, but a non-military response really isn't in the cards.

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What I find utterly contemptible is declaring that what is happening now is all Israel can do. To state that this isn't retaliation, just the "best" way to "end Hamas" whatever that even means when you take actions that will radicalize substantial portions of the populace... That's moronic and immoral. And I see the "but what about Hamas" argument to distract from Isreal's actions to be just that. Moronic and immoral. 

Some of it is retaliation, but that's not the primary goal. It's crush Hamas and getting the hostages back. Diplomacy on its own was never going to achieve that. To think otherwise is naïve.  

[Crixus]

Zorral shared a link on the previous page that has a report by Haaretz, corroborated by 2 other Israeli news sites, that says that Israel is deliberately bombing civilian buildings and causing mass casualties to make Gazans ‘turn on Hamas’. 

First, that is some bizarre, repugnant, twisted logic - if one can even call it that. Second, it pretty much proves that Israel isn’t ’doing everything it can to prevent civilian deaths’ - quite the opposite. One would think this information would stop people defending these horrific atrocities and desperately trying to paint Israel as even slightly concerned about killing innocent people. They’re clearly not. Unless of course, all these Israeli news sites and journalists are lying for some unfathomable reason. 

[fionwe1987]

Those newspapers, of course, are antisemitic. Or naive shills for Hamas. So there's no real need to deal with their content. Simple. 

[karaddin]

If Israel was conducting it's war on Hamas with absolutely no civilian casualties then I wouldn't be saying there needs to be a cease fire and I'm pretty sure everyone else, at least here, would feel the same. The cease fire we want is for Israel to stop bombing the shit out of civilians, not stop pursuing Hamas.

Now 'absolutely zero' civilians might be a fantasy, but the line for 'reasonable response' is a lot closer to that than what we're seeing from the IDF. That's obviously imo not an objective claim.

I'd also love if he IDF could stop doing shit that my initial response to is "well that's some blood libel bullshit right there" and having it actually turn out to be true. That used to be a nice easy line to see, but "leaving babies to die in hospital" is a pretty fucking staggering atrocity.

It would also be nice if they'd stop gleefully destroying Gazan property seemingly for fun, or looting. But failing that I'd recommend they stop letting their fucking troops document their own crimes and post it on social media like it's actually good propaganda. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'd also love if he IDF could stop doing shit that my initial response to is "well that's some blood libel bullshit right there" and having it actually turn out to be true.

This is why they'll lose the long term PR battle, as they should in many ways. I just hope a new government can fix things over time, free of these rightwing pieces of shit. But sadly I doubt that will be, at least anytime soon. 

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But failing that I'd recommend they stop letting their fucking troops document their own crimes and post it on social media like it's actually good propaganda. 

Honestly I don't understand how anyone could film that and not want to vomit. Watching that footages is so disgusting. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Crixus]

55 minutes ago, karaddin said:

If Israel was conducting it's war on Hamas with absolutely no civilian casualties then I wouldn't be saying there needs to be a cease fire and I'm pretty sure everyone else, at least here, would feel the same. The cease fire we want is for Israel to stop bombing the shit out of civilians, not stop pursuing Hamas.

Now 'absolutely zero' civilians might be a fantasy, but the line for 'reasonable response' is a lot closer to that than what we're seeing from the IDF. That's obviously imo not an objective claim.

I'd also love if he IDF could stop doing shit that my initial response to is "well that's some blood libel bullshit right there" and having it actually turn out to be true. That used to be a nice easy line to see, but "leaving babies to die in hospital" is a pretty fucking staggering atrocity.

It would also be nice if they'd stop gleefully destroying Gazan property seemingly for fun, or looting. But failing that I'd recommend they stop letting their fucking troops document their own crimes and post it on social media like it's actually good propaganda. 

According to Haaretz, civilian casualties are estimated at around 61%, significantly higher than the average of about 50% in other conflicts: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/09/labour-steps-up-criticism-of-intolerable-killings-in-gaza

Meanwhile, illegal, abhorrent settler activity continues unabated in the West Bank, and you have government reps like Mark Regev flatly denying this or pretending he isn’t ‘aware’ of this - despicable. 
 

And of course, Biden takes the opportunity to use emergency authority to provide more weapons to Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/biden-administration-emergency-authority-tank-shells-israel

[karaddin]

46 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is why they'll lose the long term PR battle, as they should in many ways. I just hope a new government can fix things over time, free of these rightwing pieces of shit. But sadly I doubt that will be, at least anytime soon. 

Honestly I don't understand how anyone could film that and not want to vomit. Watching that footages is so disgusting. 

It legitimately scares me what damage this is going to do long term, although I'm sure you don't need me to preach to you on that front. The right wing fucks in the West that support this shit are not actually their friends, they'll love all this stuff anticipating how they're going to use it in the future for their own propaganda.

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, Crixus said:

significantly higher than the average of about 50% in other conflicts

"Other conflicts" includes extremely different sorts of conflict. If you limit it to urban warfare, 90% of all casualties are civilians. Indeed, the Secretary-General of the UN has cited the same figure, so I think those who believe him to be a straight shooter would admit that this estimate of casualty levels out of Gaza are actually indicative of the IDF taking care and being discriminate in its targetting in a very difficult urban environment.

 

 

[Crixus]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

"Other conflicts" includes extremely different sorts of conflict. If you limit it to urban warfare, 90% of all casualties are civilians. Indeed, the Secretary-General of the UN has cited the same figure, so I think those who believe him to be a straight shooter would admit that this estimate of casualty levels out of Gaza are actually indicative of the IDF taking care and being discriminate in its targetting in a very difficult urban environment.

 

 

Sure. What about the other part of my post that mentions them causing mass civilian casualties to encourage people to ‘turn on Hamas’? That seems to contradict the level of care you say they are taking. Or do you disagree with the report and find the sources not credible? 

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

It’s best if the US keeps putting pressure on Israel behind the scenes. It would reflect poorly on the US if it just decided to start sanctioning Israel. 

And how long will that take? How many more must die so Israel saves face and the situation doesn’t reflect poorly on the US? I don’t even think that’s a good assessment anyway, because imo nothing can possibly look worse than allowing this brutal slaughter to continue.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

That is not what anyone here is asking for. Israel does not have to give in to a ceasefire with no guarantees, or hostages.

But Israel also doesn't have to bomb indiscriminately. It doesn't have to quite literally salt the earth. It doesn't have to show such patent disregard to the humanitarian situation. It doesn't have to strip people naked and take pictures of them, even if they are worthless Hamas scum, and definitely not if they're regular Palestinian citizens. 

The space between Israel caving to Hamas's unreasonable demands and what it is doing is vast. But the OP and you pretend it is either surrender to Hamas or doing what Israel is currently doing. All that is is a convenient excuse for turning a blind eye to thousands of innocents dying. And no history of pain or trauma justifies that. 

What I find utterly contemptible is declaring that what is happening now is all Israel can do. To state that this isn't retaliation, just the "best" way to "end Hamas" whatever that even means when you take actions that will radicalize substantial portions of the populace... That's moronic and immoral. And I see the "but what about Hamas" argument to distract from Isreal's actions to be just that. Moronic and immoral. 

It seems the US Secretary of Defence agrees.

 

[mormont]

7 hours ago, Altherion said:

The point of what Israel is doing is not retaliation.

It's increasingly difficult to make this claim credibly, unfortunately.

There's the treatment of Palestinian captives reported above. There's the collateral damage to both lives and buildings. There's the documented incidents of IDF soldiers destroying food and water. There's the utter absence of, and refusal to talk about, plans to rebuild. There's the attacks in the West Bank. And there's the public statements from many prominent Israelis making clear that they believe this is retaliation, and making no distinction between Hamas and Gazans in general (statements that we are constantly being told to pay no attention to - as if Israelis aren't paying attention to them).

And honestly, it would be psychologically astonishing if this was not present in their minds. Israelis feel grief, threat, anger. Retaliation would be a normal desire. It shouldn't be bleeding into the military mission, but it clearly is.

There's no longer any reasonable question, I believe, that while one aim of the operation is certainly to damage Hamas' capacity to attack Israel, there is also an unstated aim of retaliation against the populace of Gaza for the October 7 attacks. Collective punishment, in other words.

At this point, if you're not willing to admit that retaliation is a motive in the minds of Israeli politicians, soldiers, and parts of the Israeli populace, it's not because you see the matter clearly but because you refuse to.

[House Balstroko]

37 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And how long will that take? How many more must die so Israel saves face and the situation doesn’t reflect poorly on the US? I don’t even think that’s a good assessment anyway, because imo nothing can possibly look worse than allowing this brutal slaughter to continue.

I meant in the context of Israel being a major ally of the US. They are the only country that openly supports the US’s position vis-a- vis Cuba. If the US decided to throw that all away and sanction Israel, it would give the impression that even allies are subject to US sanctions. This would then raise the question of what value is there to being a US ally? 
 

Just to be clear, I’m not explicitly talking about morality here, but how society at large perceives things. Perhaps I’m looking at it the wrong way, but I feel it’s smarter to try to push Israel behind closed doors so they don’t overstep boundaries, rather make public moves. 

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

I meant in the context of Israel being a major ally of the US. They are the only country that openly supports the US’s position vis-a- vis Cuba. If the US decided to throw that all away and sanction Israel, it would give the impression that even allies are subject to US sanctions. This would then raise the question of what value is there to being a US ally? 
 

Just to be clear, I’m not explicitly talking about morality here, but how society at large perceives things. Perhaps I’m looking at it the wrong way, but I feel it’s smarter to try to push Israel behind closed doors so they don’t overstep boundaries, rather make public moves. 

Except Israel has been overstepping the boundaries for a long time now, so that ship has sailed weeks and weeks ago. And the “bear-hug diplomacy” the US has been allegedly employing  doesn’t seem to be going anywhere, since US officials keep talking about the importance of protecting civilians while Israeli officials keep making atrocious comments and basically dismissing whatever US officials say, at least in public. 

[kissdbyfire]

No comment needed. 

 

 

[Zorral]

Israel is detaining civilians in Gaza. Many have disappeared, families say.

This includes medical workers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/09/gaza-civilians-detained-israel/

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JERUSALEM — I.... But Israeli authorities have not said how many people they’ve detained, the legal grounds or where they’re being held, including whether in Gaza or in Israel. The Israel Defense Forces referred questions to the Shin Bet, Israel’s internal security service. The Shin Bet did not respond to requests for comment. ....

.... The Gaza Health Ministry says Israel has detained 36 medical workers — doctors, nurses and ambulance drivers — whose whereabouts remain unknown. The most prominent detainee is al-Shifa Hospital Director Mohamed Abu Salmiya, who the IDF says allowed Hamas to use bunkers underneath the hospital as a command center. The ministry and medical staff deny the accusation. 
could not comment on specific cases.

International law allows military forces to detain combatants. But they may arrest or detain civilians only “if it’s absolutely necessary,” said Omar Shakir, the Human Rights Watch director for Israel and Palestine. Civilians must be charged within 48 hours and allowed to challenge their detention, among other protections, he said, or released.

“You have to have a very high bar if you are going to detain civilians,” Shakir said. “It can’t just be, ‘Well anyone could attack us any time.’”

“Israel’s abusive and discriminatory detention practices over decades of occupation raise significant doubt if detention is meeting those standards,” he said. ....

.... Khatour, who was released last month in the exchange of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners, said the women had little food and slept on the floor. Several said they had been beaten. One was breastfeeding.

“There were no clear charges against them,” Khatour said. “They told us that the goal was to collect as much information as possible about their families and their surroundings.” ....

 

~~~~~~~~

‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gambled that a strong Hamas (but not too strong) would keep the peace and reduce pressure for a Palestinian state.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html

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Just weeks before Hamas launched the deadly Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, the head of Mossad arrived in Doha, Qatar, for a meeting with Qatari officials.

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.

During his meetings in September with the Qatari officials, according to several people familiar with the secret discussions, the Mossad chief, David Barnea, was asked a question that had not been on the agenda: Did Israel want the payments to continue?

Mr. Netanyahu’s government had recently decided to continue the policy, so Mr. Barnea said yes. The Israeli government still welcomed the money from Doha.

Allowing the payments — billions of dollars over roughly a decade — was a gamble by Mr. Netanyahu that a steady flow of money would maintain peace in Gaza, the eventual launching point of the Oct. 7 attacks, and keep Hamas focused on governing, not fighting.

The Qatari payments, while ostensibly a secret, have been widely known and discussed in the Israeli news media for years. Mr. Netanyahu’s critics disparage them as part of a strategy of “buying quiet,” and the policy is in the middle of a ruthless reassessment following the attacks. Mr. Netanyahu has lashed back at that criticism, calling the suggestion that he tried to empower Hamas “ridiculous.” ....