Israel - Hamas war XVI

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

it betrays everything that Western nations liked to pretend they stand for.

I suppose there can be a sense of relief that the pretense is over and done with.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You literally establish and contradict your belief in a single sentence.

It's either gone way too far or not. If 'you can't sidestep the Hamas issue', then it's not too far yet for you. The two don't work at the same time.

They do. Hamas has to be defeated, however, that doesn't justify all of Israel's actions. There's no Goldilocks answer here. 

5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

They don't have the ability to enforce that even if they wanted to. As I said Israel has almost all of the power here.

None of the other countries involved in the negotiation have said that the PA must be the leader of the state.

No one has also found a rational route to new leadership either. That's the problem for basically every side of this.

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The public hasn't made likud or Netanyahu go, however. They have been elected again and again. Whereas Gaza has several times attempted to hold elections and for a variety of reasons has not been able to do even that. 

Likud was voted out in 2021. Problem is there are just too many competing factions and it didn't hold. 

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How is Hamas governing or in control of Gaza in any meaningful way? They can fight against Israel but only on a very limited basis with no permanent places of use, certainly none above ground. They control no infrastructure, no fuel, no food, no medical systems...how are they in any way in power right now?

Because again if you are saying that hamas is in power if they can mount insurgent actions then they will never not be in power.

Because they are the governing body and they do have food, fuel and medical supplies. They're just not sharing them. The reason they want a ceasefire is to restore their supplies, not to help everyday Palestinians they've badly mistreated for a long time. 

[Fragile Bird]

I don’t know if this is the right place to mention this, but since this war started because of the terrorist attack on Oct. 7, I guess there is no better place.

There’s a UN agency called UNRWA, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Turning on my cell phone tonight a headline story popped up saying 11 workers for the agency participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Canada had already announced it is suspending support payments to the agency, as is the US. I assume other countries will as well.

Expect people in a number of countries to use this as yet another reason not to support the UN. Pretty sad situation.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don’t know if this is the right place to mention this, but since this war started because of the terrorist attack on Oct. 7, I guess there is no better place.

There’s a UN agency called UNRWA, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Turning on my cell phone tonight a headline story popped up saying 11 workers for the agency participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Canada had already announced it is suspending support payments to the agency, as is the US. I assume other countries will as well.

Expect people in a number of countries to use this as yet another reason not to support the UN. Pretty sad situation.

Der Vogel muss die vorherigen seiten lesen!

[House Balstroko]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don’t know if this is the right place to mention this, but since this war started because of the terrorist attack on Oct. 7, I guess there is no better place.

There’s a UN agency called UNRWA, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Turning on my cell phone tonight a headline story popped up saying 11 workers for the agency participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Canada had already announced it is suspending support payments to the agency, as is the US. I assume other countries will as well.

Expect people in a number of countries to use this as yet another reason not to support the UN. Pretty sad situation.

If I’m not mistaken, those working for the  UNRWA need to be approved by Hamas. For some reason, this is the only agency present there, while in most other areas the UNHCR operates. 

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

No one has also found a rational route to new leadership either. That's the problem for basically every side of this.

That's not the point. Israel could simply appoint someone if they choose at this point, or the qatar/SA/USA group could choose at this point. PA only has power as long as others choose to even vaguely include them. You don't need to force a change in PA at all.

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Likud was voted out in 2021. Problem is there are just too many competing factions and it didn't hold. 

So...you're saying that Israel hasn't changed their leadership and their populace has kept likud in power. Which is what I said. 

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Because they are the governing body and they do have food, fuel and medical supplies. They're just not sharing them. The reason they want a ceasefire is to restore their supplies, not to help everyday Palestinians they've badly mistreated for a long time. 

If Hamas is governing, what are they in control over? Having supplies is not special - by that token the UN is the governing body. Hamas doesn't have control of anything meaningful in Gaza save the tunnel system. They do not control borders, they do not control any actual land, they have no control of sea or air. If they have leadership they are in hiding.

I'm quite serious here - yall say that you want to defeat hamas. What does that look like? And how is it functionally different from the existing situation? 

[DireWolfSpirit]

"Golda" is streaming on several sites currently. Helen Mirren stars as Golda Meir the former Israeli P.M. during the Yom Kippur War against Egypt and coalition forces.

A surprise attack on Israeli territory by Arab coalition forces on October 6, 1973, began the final and bloodiest conflict of the Arab-Israeli wars. October 6, 2023, marks the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, also known as the Ramadan War, but it didn't emerge out of nowhere.Oct 6, 2023

So I hadnt realized the terror attacks were pretty much on the anniversary of this history.

[Kyoshi]

14 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

And it is times like these I feel so out of place on an English-speaking forum, my family and me being from a country that was once colonized and all that, watching the tragedies of another.

I completely understand how you feel. The western intelligentsia is truly something to behold. That people can debate humanity is something that will forever shock me.

[Clueless Northman]

10 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

There’s a UN agency called UNRWA, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Turning on my cell phone tonight a headline story popped up saying 11 workers for the agency participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Canada had already announced it is suspending support payments to the agency, as is the US. I assume other countries will as well.

Expect people in a number of countries to use this as yet another reason not to support the UN. Pretty sad situation.

This blows out right now, when the ICJ releases its first opinion and ruling - basically, Israel is under watch and is put on notice because all that's going on comes reasonably close to what S. Africa denouces. And instead of having Western countries telling Israeli government and IDF to act like civilized people and stop burning Gaza to the ground just like Genghis Khan troops would've done, they're bashing UNRWA. Yeah, that this accusation occurs right now is, of course, a pure coincidence, nothing to see here, move along. Israeli officials were definitely not keeping this claim under wrap to use at the most convenient time as a deflection from what really matters: the International Court of Justice finds that there's solid ground to suspect that the actions of the "only democracy in the Middle East" are dangerously close to genocide.

[Heartofice]

18 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

This blows out right now, when the ICJ releases its first opinion and ruling - basically, Israel is under watch and is put on notice because all that's going on comes reasonably close to what S. Africa denouces. And instead of having Western countries telling Israeli government and IDF to act like civilized people and stop burning Gaza to the ground just like Genghis Khan troops would've done, they're bashing UNRWA. Yeah, that this accusation occurs right now is, of course, a pure coincidence, nothing to see here, move along. Israeli officials were definitely not keeping this claim under wrap to use at the most convenient time as a deflection from what really matters: the International Court of Justice finds that there's solid ground to suspect that the actions of the "only democracy in the Middle East" are dangerously close to genocide.

I doubt the timing is a coincidence, but it also would be a pretty ineffectual move if deliberate.
 

The same people who are deliberately misrepresenting what the ICJ ruling means, are exactly the same people who have happily handwaved the clearly partisan nature of the UNRWA for ages. The revelation that members of Hamas’ attacks were part of the UNRWA is not surprising to anyone. 
 

None of this is changing anyone’s minds.

Edited January 27 by Heartofice

[Zorral]

Israel is spending millions if not billions on propaganda of all kinds.  They have even said so, to "shape sympathy for Israel."  They happen to have an oft proven record of outright lying and also of murdering journalists (not to mention children).

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That's not the point. Israel could simply appoint someone if they choose at this point, or the qatar/SA/USA group could choose at this point. PA only has power as long as others choose to even vaguely include them. You don't need to force a change in PA at all.

Not really and I don't think that would be a course that would produce a positive outcome either. 

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So...you're saying that Israel hasn't changed their leadership and their populace has kept likud in power. Which is what I said. 

They literally did. It just changed back. That hasn't happened in Gaza or the WB so what are we debating?

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If Hamas is governing, what are they in control over? Having supplies is not special - by that token the UN is the governing body. Hamas doesn't have control of anything meaningful in Gaza save the tunnel system. They do not control borders, they do not control any actual land, they have no control of sea or air. If they have leadership they are in hiding.

They had control over a lot before the war. Them sucking at it doesn't change the fact they run Gaza. They're not a functional or democratic entity, but they are still in charge. The entire point from Israel's side is to end that. 

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I'm quite serious here - yall say that you want to defeat hamas. What does that look like? And how is it functionally different from the existing situation? 

You can't allow Hamas to be left in power. The problem is the only way to defeat them is ugly, has bad long term ramifications and Israel has not done a good job. All these things can be true at once. 

[Zorral]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

They had control over a lot before the war

No they didn't have control over anything meaningful, that makes for actual control, which has been repeated and pointed out and documented full time here.  Borders, transportation, communications, policing/military, roads, etc. were then as now in the control of Israel.  How often must this be said before you quit being in denial.

Even now Israel is keeping medical and food humanitarian aid out of Gaza, and lately it has been plain Israeli citizens themselves stopping the trucks from crossing over.

Edited January 27 by Zorral

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

No they didn't have control over anything meaningful, that makes for actual control, which has been repeated and pointed out and documented full time here.  Borders, transportation, communications, policing/military, roads, etc. were then as now in the control of Israel.  How often must this be said before you quit being in denial.

Even now Israel is keeping medical and food humanitarian aid out of Gaza, and lately it has been plain Israeli citizens themselves stopping the trucks from crossing over.

Within Gaza they had control. Not what was occurring outside that affected Gaza. However that doesn't change the fact they have been the governing body within Gaza for nearly two decades. 

[Clueless Northman]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Within Gaza they had control. Not what was occurring outside that affected Gaza. However that doesn't change the fact they have been the governing body within Gaza for nearly two decades. 

Sure, one can always argue that the inmate has control within his own prison cell.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

 

They literally did. It just changed back. That hasn't happened in Gaza or the WB so what are we debating?

Israel was not able to form a government other than with Netanyahu. Israel has not had a legal government other than with Netanyahu in the last 20 years.

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

They had control over a lot before the war. Them sucking at it doesn't change the fact they run Gaza. They're not a functional or democratic entity, but they are still in charge. The entire point from Israel's side is to end that. 

I'm not talking about before the war - I'm talking about right now. How are they, right now, running Gaza? And how do you stop them running Gaza if they are?

1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

You can't allow Hamas to be left in power. The problem is the only way to defeat them is ugly, has bad long term ramifications and Israel has not done a good job. All these things can be true at once. 

You evaded the question again. You say hamas is in power and you want them not to be - okay, what do they have power over right now? How are they exerting power? 

An example- saddam hussein was in hiding for a while during gulf War 2. Was his faction in power then? Could the rebuilding happen while this was the case?

If hamas is a government in exile- which by most accounts is exactly what they are now - can you start the rebuilding?

I'm not arguing about the need to depose hamas. I'm pointing out that what that actually means when you're dealing with a terrorist organization instead of a state is very different, and if you don't have concrete goals and measurables to say when you have done that thing you will be at war forever. So again, I ask you - what does a defeated hamas look like? How do you achieve it?

[Zorral]

Also, if Hamas was an actual state, according to Chatwyn's arguments they had the right to invade Israel and commit atrocities because it was self-defense after decades of murder and pillage and theft and imprisonment of Palestinians by Israel.

It can't be both ways -- Israel has the right to self-defense because it is a state that was attacked. However Hamas is called a ruling power, of a state that doesn't have the right to self-defense because it is not a state. Yet Hamas is a state so it must be attacked, even though Gaza's citizens, Gaza, within which Hamas exists, is not a state.  See, just trying to parse these arguments falls into the slough pf nonsense. Yet these are the arguments -- all of them -- Chatwyn has been running here non-stop, riddled with contradictions, illogics and non-rationalities.

 

 

Edited January 27 by Zorral

[Tears of Lys]

19 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I don’t know if this is the right place to mention this, but since this war started because of the terrorist attack on Oct. 7, I guess there is no better place.

There’s a UN agency called UNRWA, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. Turning on my cell phone tonight a headline story popped up saying 11 workers for the agency participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. Canada had already announced it is suspending support payments to the agency, as is the US. I assume other countries will as well.

Expect people in a number of countries to use this as yet another reason not to support the UN. Pretty sad situation.

Yes, stopping the aid when it's most needed is heartbreaking.  If someone appointed me as the person in charge, I'd want to know what actions encompass "participated."  Were they just cheering when Israel was attacked?  or were they directly involved in rape and murder?  What was the extent of this participation?  The head of the UNRWA should immediately conduct an investigation into who was involved, what did they do, and kick their asses out of this organization.  The Palestinian people are not benifitted by these yahoos' actions.  Until they at least make some move in that direction, UNRWA is has given the impression that they agree with Hamas and they will continue to lose support - support they cannot afford to lose.

Of course, this whole story was reported by Israel, which is suspect in itself.  I'd like to know the sources of their information.  

ETA:  And whadyaknow, here it is:

UNRWA probes employees over suspected involvement in October 7 attack | United Nations News | Al Jazeera

Edited January 27 by Tears of Lys

[Zorral]

Let us never forget the beheaded babies that were proven not to be. 

The lesson is to not believe what pops up in feeds.

Particularly if the feed feeds into what the recipient really would like to believe.

Edited January 27 by Zorral

[Heartofice]

41 minutes ago, Tears of Lys said:

Of course, this whole story was reported by Israel, which is suspect in itself.  I'd like to know the sources of their information.

Well there seems to be enough information and evidence provided for a host of countries to cut ties and pause funding with the UNRWA, so it's unlikely it's just nothing.
 

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Let us never forget the beheaded babies that were proven not to be. 

And yet babies were murdered by Hamas, it really doesn't matter if they were beheaded or not. Anyone bringing this up as some sort of moral point is just a terrible person.