SaffronLady Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 36 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said: every statement from Palestinians are to be taken as on the face facts. No of course not, they are "Hamas lies and propaganda that are being repeated, over and over". Northern Sword 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 22 minutes ago, Ran said: Well, of course not, they bear no responsibilities at all. It's not a question of "responsibilities." The best argument for the IDF's non-discriminatory methods was that it could get the job done quickly, but if destroying half the buildings in Gaza isn't enough to neutralize Hamas, one has to wonder whether this operation ever had any valid military objectives to begin with. Or are we to believe that the point of razing 70 to 80% of buildings is to protect Israelis and not punish Palestinians? Does this truly have to go on for another year? Please. If the IDF knew what it was doing, then this would be over, and if Hamas can't be considered neutralized at this point, then it never will, and all arguments to that effect are spurious. And we know for a fact that Hamas could never have pulled out their attack if the Israeli government hadn't been criminally complacent/negligent, so after more than three months of intense military operations, the "But Hamas" line is only going to feel increasingly grotesque. It's time to stop waging "war" on the Palestinian people and actually start rebuilding and protecting Israel, and that's not going to be achieved by inflicting more misery on the Palestinians. At this point, Israel is just engaging in gratuitous cruelty, and you have to be truly gullible not to see it. 7 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: Then you don't care about a path to lasting peace either. I think I care far more than you tbh. Which Tyler, Kyoshi, Zorral and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fionwe1987 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Rippounet said: I think I care far more than you tbh. I think anyone who's for continued bombing in Gaza is deluded if they think this is the pathway to peace, lasting or otherwise. Edited January 26 by fionwe1987 Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Rippounet said: And we know for a fact that Hamas could never have pulled out their attack if the Israeli government hadn't been criminally complacent/negligent, so after more than three months of intense military operations, the "But Hamas" line is only going to feel increasingly grotesque. Israel fucking up is still not an excuse for Hamas' actions. This is victim blaming. Quote It's time to stop waging "war" on the Palestinian people and actually start rebuilding and protecting Israel, and that's not going to be achieved by inflicting more misery on the Palestinians. At this point, Israel is just engaging in gratuitous cruelty, and you have to be truly gullible not to see it. You're right to say Israel attacking innocent Palestinians is wrong and has gone way too far, but again you can't sidestep the Hamas issue. Rebuilding and fortifying Israel is great and all, but it doesn't address a number of the core issues at hand. How is Gaza going to be rebuilt? How are both sides going to be enticed to change their political leadership? How can there be a reasonable path to a functioning two (or more) state solution? We can do this all day. The problem is there are no good answers to any of these questions and we're just scratching the surface here. Quote I think I care far more than you tbh. Not if you are unwilling to be honest about how difficult all of this will be. Magical thinking isn't going to help. Edited January 26 by Mr. Chatywin et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffronLady Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 And it is times like these I feel so out of place on an English-speaking forum, my family and me being from a country that was once colonized and all that, watching the tragedies of another. The Fallen, dbergkvist, Kyoshi and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 In more direct accounting of war crimes, malfeasance and other not awesome behaviors we have this shooting of an unarmed grandmother holding a white flag - along with other accounts of similar behavior of shooting unarmed civilians. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl/index.html As to @Rippounet's point - and one I've said repeatedly too - right now Israel has the vast majority of the power to do anything. Palestinian leadership can change or modify all they'd like but it won't matter in the least. Israel is the one that is currently doing the massive amount of civilian deaths and property damage and humanitarian atrocities, and doesn't appear to have a great path towards the victory they want. For example, after Israel left Northern Gaza and focused on Khan Younis Hamas was able to launch rockets from Northern Gaza, the first attack like that in a few weeks. Is there any real expectation that this won't continue going forward? Israel has so far freed one hostage via military intervention while killing several others. They have freed 60+ hostages via negotiation. Is there expectation that more military use will result in more hostages freed? So yeah, Hamas is bad, needs to go, etc. But Israel holds all the power in terms of affecting actual peace in the region. Craving Peaches, Larry of the Lawn, dbergkvist and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 43 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: Magical thinking isn't going to help. It depends on who your allies are. In fact, magical thinking and special pleading is being used to carry out ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism as we speak. Rippounet, Kyoshi, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 One of the key takes of this decision hasn't yet been stated, so there it is: Even if there's no genocide and the ICC concludes there's no genocide going on, this decision shows they consider that what's been going on is bad enough to come close to a pre-genocide situation. Which means that, if things weren't as bad as genuine crimes against humanity, at the very least there are war crimes that have been committed and are still going on - and these will have to be prosecuted sooner or later, considering the international profile of the case. Besides, I would think that no sane government would supply Israel with weapons until the war is over, because this can become judicially very risky, depending on how things go on from here, and how the Court judges the case. 1 hour ago, SaffronLady said: And it is times like these I feel so out of place on an English-speaking forum, my family and me being from a country that was once colonized and all that, watching the tragedies of another. Oh, it's partly the typical international situation in which the side with more and better English-speakers has the upper hand in English-speaking forums. You could see it fairly well when the Flemish far-right was agitating against Belgium central government: Walloons are a minority easily swamped by the more English-fluent Flemish posters; heck, I don't even want to think what it would look like in a debate about Quebec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: You're right to say Israel attacking innocent Palestinians is wrong and has gone way too far, but again you can't sidestep the Hamas issue. Rebuilding and fortifying Israel is great and all, but it doesn't address a number of the core issues at hand. How is Gaza going to be rebuilt? How are both sides going to be enticed to change their political leadership? How can there be a reasonable path to a functioning two (or more) state solution? We can do this all day. The problem is there are no good answers to any of these questions and we're just scratching the surface here. It's kinda my main point: not only does the purely military campaign against Hamas not help answer any of these questions, but it is now actively preventing it. kissdbyfire, Kyoshi and Matrim Fox Cauthon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Rippounet said: not help answer any of these questions Really? "How is Gaza going to be rebuilt?" So long as Hamas is in power and actively a belligerent against Israel, it can't be rebuilt. Defeating Hamas will open the door to the reconstruction. "How are both sides going to be enticed to change their political leadership?" Gazans will have to pick new leaders with Hamas gone. "How can there be a reasonable path to a functioning two (or more) state solution?" So long as Hamas is in power in Gaza, the two-state solution isn't going anywhere. It may not go anywhere when they're gone, but the odds will in fact improve. Edited January 26 by Ran House Balstroko and Mr. Chatywin et al. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Kalbear said: In more direct accounting of war crimes, malfeasance and other not awesome behaviors we have this shooting of an unarmed grandmother holding a white flag - along with other accounts of similar behavior of shooting unarmed civilians. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/26/middleeast/hala-khreis-white-flag-shooting-gaza-cmd-intl/index.html The IDF's current relaxed rules of engagement allows them to shoot civilians waving white flags. This has been made clear with the many incidents of civilians being shot and killed despite waving white flags. You have to wonder how many incidents weren't captured on camera and will never be known. There will be no punishment for these crimes. In fact, the soldiers responsible for killing the three Israeli hostages are not being punished at all. Instead, they received counseling and support. The message after that incident was essentially to just make sure that who you killed weren't Israeli's. No change in the rules of engagement were made. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4366786-idf-spokesperson-says-no-changes-on-ground-after-hostages-mistakenly-killed/ Quote The spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said there will be no changes on the ground in Gaza after its soldiers mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages last week. Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus said in an interview on NewsNation’s “NewsNation Now” that while the incident was “one of the most heartbreaking and difficult events” that has taken place since the war broke out, the IDF will not be changing how it interacts with civilians as a result. He said military leadership has spoken with the soldiers who fired on the hostages and no disciplinary action will be taken. https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778896 Quote The IDF's 828th Brigade has released a preliminary investigation into the killing of three Israeli hostages by IDF combat soldiers in Shejaia in the Gaza Strip. The investigation reveals that on the morning of the incident, soldiers in Shejaia received new instructions to open fire on any man of fighting age that approached them after several incidents where terrorists disguised in civilian clothes got close to soldiers to attack them. Apparently, it also extends to women walking hand in hand with young children. I saw the video of the grandmother getting shot, and it's straight up murder. The IDF rules permit them to shoot civilians if they are walking in their direction. It's too bad for them if they are unaware that IDF soldiers are in the area and that they are walking in their general direction. kissdbyfire and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000 '42 Knees in One Day': Israeli Snipers Open Up About Shooting Gaza Protesters https://apnews.com/article/6035b1d3293c4a298145afbff50ab844 Quote Of the 10,511 protesters treated at hospitals and field clinics in Gaza so far, at least 6,392, or roughly 60 percent, have been struck in the lower limbs, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry. At least 5,884 of those casualties were hit by live ammunition; others have been hit by rubber-coated metal bullets and tear gas canisters. The upsurge in violence has left a visible mark on Gaza that will likely remain for decades to come. It is now common to see young men walking through dilapidated streets on crutches. Most have legs bandaged or fitted with a metal frame called a fixator, which uses pins or screws that are inserted into fractured bones to help stabilize them. The wounded can often be seen gathering at a treatment clinic run by the Paris-based medical charity Doctors Without Borders in Gaza City, where Associated Press photographer Felipe Dana took portraits of some of them. Some of those he photographed acknowledged throwing stones toward Israeli troops during the demonstrations. One said he had hurled a firebomb. But others said they were unarmed bystanders; one paramedic said he was helping rescue the wounded, while another man said he was waving a Palestinian flag and another said he was selling coffee and tea. Given the tactics the IDF has been employing for years now, I don’t think their ROE mean much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 14 minutes ago, Ran said: Really? "How is Gaza going to be rebuilt?" So long as Hamas is in power and actively a belligerent against Israel, it can't be rebuilt. Defeating Hamas will open the door to the reconstruction. I think those two things are separate. I think Hamas being in power is definitely a blocker though it's very easy to ensure that they aren't in power in lots of different ways. Hamas being an active belligerent against Israel, though - that is what folks are saying - that is an insurmountable obstacle that is both impossible in practice and not what you care about anyway. For example, let's magically say that Hamas is done; does that stop other groups calling themselves different names from being belligerents in exactly the same way? The fact is that - just like in Afghanistan and Iraq and a whole host of other areas - you will need to be able to have a government and a rebuilding plan and a system in place while active insurgency is still going on. You may have to have stages and safe zones and incremental goals, but if you're waiting for insurgency to just stop forever you are saying you are uninterested in any rebuilding. 14 minutes ago, Ran said: "How are both sides going to be enticed to change their political leadership?" Gazans will have to pick new leaders with Hamas gone. How will that entice Israel? Israel is the country that has shown absolutely no sign of changing their leadership or goals in over 20 years; even Gaza has shown repeatedly interest in changes. 14 minutes ago, Ran said: "How can there be a reasonable path to a functioning two (or more) state solution?" So long as Hamas is in power in Gaza, the two-state solution isn't going anywhere. It may not go anywhere when they're gone, but the odds will in fact improve. Hamas is by any account not in power in Gaza. So...we could do this now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 39 minutes ago, Kalbear said: I think Hamas being in power is definitely a blocker though it's very easy to ensure that they aren't in power in lots of different ways. Not really, especially when the PA says Hamas will be a part of the future Palestinian state, if there ever is one. Quote How will that entice Israel? Israel is the country that has shown absolutely no sign of changing their leadership or goals in over 20 years; even Gaza has shown repeatedly interest in changes. Huh? Hamas has been in charge for nearly two decades while Israel recently had a government shakeup and the public clearly wants Netanyahu to go. Quote Hamas is by any account not in power in Gaza. So...we could do this now? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: You're right to say Israel attacking innocent Palestinians is wrong and has gone way too far, but again you can't sidestep the Hamas issue. You literally establish and contradict your belief in a single sentence. It's either gone way too far or not. If 'you can't sidestep the Hamas issue', then it's not too far yet for you. The two don't work at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 28 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: Not really, especially when the PA says Hamas will be a part of the future Palestinian state, if there ever is one. They don't have the ability to enforce that even if they wanted to. As I said Israel has almost all of the power here. None of the other countries involved in the negotiation have said that the PA must be the leader of the state. 28 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: Huh? Hamas has been in charge for nearly two decades while Israel recently had a government shakeup and the public clearly wants Netanyahu to go. The public hasn't made likud or Netanyahu go, however. They have been elected again and again. Whereas Gaza has several times attempted to hold elections and for a variety of reasons has not been able to do even that. 28 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said: What? How is Hamas governing or in control of Gaza in any meaningful way? They can fight against Israel but only on a very limited basis with no permanent places of use, certainly none above ground. They control no infrastructure, no fuel, no food, no medical systems...how are they in any way in power right now? Because again if you are saying that hamas is in power if they can mount insurgent actions then they will never not be in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 2 hours ago, Mudguard said: Apparently, it also extends to women walking hand in hand with young children. I saw the video of the grandmother getting shot, and it's straight up murder. The IDF rules permit them to shoot civilians if they are walking in their direction. It's too bad for them if they are unaware that IDF soldiers are in the area and that they are walking in their general direction. IDF has routinely been killing Palestinians this way across the West Bank for decades. It's not exactly a surprise the war in Gaza turns into such a blood bath for civilians - obviously, they weren't going to rely on stricter ROE. Kyoshi and Zorral 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 I keep thinking what Israel is doing can't make me sicker than I already am, but every day Israel proves me wrong. It's beyond obscene. dbergkvist, Rippounet, Kyoshi and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) "Gaza will be rebuilt once Hamas is defeated" is such obvious bullshit and all you have to do it look at how the West Bank is treated to know it. Anyway in an early thread I pointed out one of the biggest difference between groups is while people are fine with Hamas being destroyed, that's not broadly something called for for the IDF. Well I've changed my mind. The IDF needs to be dismantled and replaced. Clearly it can't be expected to rise beyond the terrorist groups that formed it. ETA: https://twitter.com/RamAbdu/status/1750894630650937662 Edited January 27 by TrueMetis dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, Ran said: "How is Gaza going to be rebuilt?" So long as Hamas is in power and actively a belligerent against Israel, it can't be rebuilt. Defeating Hamas will open the door to the reconstruction. "How are both sides going to be enticed to change their political leadership?" Gazans will have to pick new leaders with Hamas gone. "How can there be a reasonable path to a functioning two (or more) state solution?" So long as Hamas is in power in Gaza, the two-state solution isn't going anywhere. It may not go anywhere when they're gone, but the odds will in fact improve. What is it supposed to mean for Hamas to be "in power" when Gaza is already mostly destroyed? Should any official or anyone belonging to some kind of vaguely organized structure formally renounce Hamas in some grand ceremony? Should they tear down the flags and symbols, and scream loudly to the sky that they forswear Hamas? Should all adults surrender, walking towards Israeli soldiers with their hands in the air, ready to be gunned down or humiliated? At this point, the only way for Hamas to be "gone" is for the people in Gaza to be reduced to a traumatized, starving horde, thrown down on their knees and begging for mercy. And once any will to be vaguely human has been snuffed out, to organize mock elections in which all participating adults will swear never to take arms again. In other words, the only way to achieve "victory," is to strip them of human dignity to a point where they will be willing to say and do anything to make the violence stop. I guess something close will indeed take place, but what kind of person will keep supporting a state that uses this level of brutality to ensure its security? It's not just that the safety of Jews will be tied to force for the foreseeable future, it's also that it betrays everything that Western nations liked to pretend they stand for. It's quite clear now, where this all leads. Kyoshi and kissdbyfire 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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