Israel - Hamas war XVI

[GrimTuesday]

18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well there seems to be enough information and evidence provided for a host of countries to cut ties and pause funding with the UNRWA, so it's unlikely it's just nothing.
 

And yet babies were murdered by Hamas, it really doesn't matter if they were beheaded or not. Anyone bringing this up as some sort of moral point is just a terrible person.

Except even that is wrong. There was only one "baby" that was murdered on October 7th according to the official Israeli numbers, with the total of children (those aged 0-19 according to Israeli records) amounting to 50 victims total. The point here is not to quibble about whether or not innocents lost their lives, that is objectively true and is horrific, but rather to illustrate that the information that Israel puts out is suspect. It also illustrates that just because other nations say they have been presented with credible evidence does not actually mean that is the case. You may recall Joe Biden going out and publicly repeating what we now know were just straight up lies, and when journalists followed up on the evidence the white house had been given, administration spokespeople confirmed that no such information had actually been presented.

We'll have to wait and see what the UNRWA's internal investigation uncovers.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well there seems to be enough information and evidence provided for a host of countries to cut ties and pause funding with the UNRWA, so it's unlikely it's just nothing.

Countries stopping support for UNRWA doesn’t mean the allegations aren’t “nothing” as you put it, there seems to be a lot more at play here. For instance, this terrible war has scathed the reputation of several countries, and deservedly so, so I bet these countries would jump at the opportunity of laundering their reputations by going, “oh but UNRWA is aligned w/ Hamas”. Interesting that this may backfire and cause further damage to their reputations, but I can’t say I feel for them. 
To be perfectly clear, there may be something there, I don’t know. Then again, maybe there’s no there there at all. I imagine the investigations will prove it one way or another. 
But given the scale of the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, perhaps it would have been better for these countries to declare their concerns publicly and loudly, and demand a thorough and comprehensive investigation, while warning UNRWA and the UN that all funds would be cut in case any proof was presented. But sadly the leaders of these countries don’t seem to give a flying fuck about the Palestinian people.

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And yet babies were murdered by Hamas, it really doesn't matter if they were beheaded or not.

What an utterly silly argument. Of course it matters, it increases the shock factor by a lot. If it really didn’t matter, then why did they invent this horrible lie?

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Anyone bringing this up as some sort of moral point is just a terrible person.

Zorral never said murdered babies is fine as long as they’re not beheaded. You’re either knowingly twisting what they said or you really didn’t understand it, and I’m not sure which option is worse. 
Also, try to avoid ad hominem attacks, they don’t really do anything for the arguments you’re trying to make.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Israel was not able to form a government other than with Netanyahu. Israel has not had a legal government other than with Netanyahu in the last 20 years.

He was out of power, that's the point. He then came back into power. 

Quote

I'm not talking about before the war - I'm talking about right now. How are they, right now, running Gaza? And how do you stop them running Gaza if they are?

Who else is running Gaza then? Who controls their internal politics? Support for Hamas has actually grown since this powder keg went off. 

Quote

You evaded the question again. You say hamas is in power and you want them not to be - okay, what do they have power over right now? How are they exerting power? 

I'm not evading anything and is believed their intentions are to take most of the humanitarian supplies for themselves. 

Quote

I'm not arguing about the need to depose hamas. I'm pointing out that what that actually means when you're dealing with a terrorist organization instead of a state is very different, and if you don't have concrete goals and measurables to say when you have done that thing you will be at war forever. So again, I ask you - what does a defeated hamas look like? How do you achieve it?

And when the terrorist organization is also the state? You're acting like this is black and white when it isn't. And to achieve defeating Hamas is probably only possibly by combat. Israel has just been way too indiscriminate in their approach.  

[Kalbear]

39 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

He was out of power, that's the point. He then came back into power. 

And my point is that Israel has not had a functional, legal government without him. He was out of power along with everyone else. 

39 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Who else is running Gaza then? Who controls their internal politics? Support for Hamas has actually grown since this powder keg went off. 

Currently no one is running Gaza, or Israel is. I could make a plausible argument for either. There are no internal politics that matter right now. As to the support argument - so what? Are you going to say that you will continue the war until polling improves?

39 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I'm not evading anything and is believed their intentions are to take most of the humanitarian supplies for themselves. 

That is evasion because it has nothing to do with what I asked. 

39 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And when the terrorist organization is also the state? You're acting like this is black and white when it isn't. And to achieve defeating Hamas is probably only possibly by combat. Israel has just been way too indiscriminate in their approach.  

Evasion again, then. Pity. 

It's something of a simple question - what does defeating hamas mean? What are the criteria you are using for their defeat? If you say it is only possible via combat, under what criteria are you going to be declaring victory?

To show good faith here are what my criteria would be:

- all tunnels in the northern half of Gaza are functionally dismantled, and any connections to them from southern Gaza are severed

- certain military leaders associated with 7-10 are known to have been killed, captured or fled the area. 

- the major cities (Gaza city, khan younis and rafah) have had all aboveground hamas areas neutralized

That's still probably too vague but is at least quantitative. Once those are done I'd consider putting In a green zone in Gaza city, a major military presence, and installing an interim governing body whose goal would be to stabilize refugee aid, deal with immediate cleanup and rebuild immediate infrastructure needs. That probably could be started in the next month or two.

While this is going on you'd still be attacking areas in the south, tunnels and other harder to deal with things, but the populace of the most populated area could return home and there would be a safer area for displaced southern gazans. 

Now I suspect that you will have quibbles with that so again I ask - what does defeating hamas look like? And how do you do that?

[Zorral]

LOCAL NEWS 
Protests in support of Palestinians held across New York City for National Day of Action

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/new-york-city-national-day-of-action-palestine-protests/

 

[Kyoshi]

On 1/26/2024 at 5:56 PM, Ran said:

Evidence is that there's many more employees who are militants or affiliated with them, but didn't necessarily take part in the attack.

This particular post has been bothering because it was just too familiar. Here's a report about another aid organisation suddenly being labelled a terrorist organisation, very notably, after an inquiry into the r*p* of a Palestinian boy by Israeli prison authorities.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-criminalized-group-following-report-raped-palestinian-child

The one thing the Israeli prison/war machine can do "very well" is find terrorists among aid organisations. Somehow, it's always when they're called upon to do better and treat Palestinians better. So of course as soon as the ICJ said Israeli must stop blocking humanitarian aid into Gaza, they blocked aid completely. To use an analogy, Israel has been behaving like an abuser throughout its entire occupation. Everything it's required to do better because its crimes are brought to light, it retaliates by punishing Palestinians.

[Kyoshi]

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

Let us never forget the beheaded babies that were proven not to be. 

The lesson is to not believe what pops up in feeds.

Particularly if the feed feeds into what the recipient really would like to believe.

Israel does this constantly. They make a truly shocking claim that will have you on their side without question, click bait if you will. And then later, very very very quietly, they will retract the statement such that it barely makes a dent against the original statement.

They also do it with accountability, like when the IDF killed Shireen Abu Akleh, the admission of guilt was so quiet that if you weren't following the story you would have missed it completely.

[Kyoshi]

7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well there seems to be enough information and evidence provided for a host of countries to cut ties and pause funding with the UNRWA, so it's unlikely it's just nothing.
 

And yet babies were murdered by Hamas, it really doesn't matter if they were beheaded or not. Anyone bringing this up as some sort of moral point is just a terrible person.

You're being deliberately disingenuous here. You know it makes a huge difference when headlines come out saying "Hamas beheads 40 babies," vs when they say "there was a baby among the murdered civilians." Ask yourself why someone would say the first if it isn't true and you'll get your answer.

Edited January 28 by Kyoshi

[Craving Peaches]

How come when hospitals were struck, we were supposed to not jump to any conclusions and wait for a proper investigation by a neutral party, but when Israel says a Palestinian aid group is full of terrorists right after being ordered to increase aid to Gaza by the ICJ, we are supposed to instantly believe them and cut aid? Surely we should be waiting for someone else to investigate first rather than jumping to any conclusions? 

[Ran]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

we are supposed to instantly believe them and cut aid?

This story has been building for months (or years, depending on how you want to look at it). Israel exposed a Telegram channel where thousands (3,000!) UNRWA employees cheered the October 7th terror attack, which started reporters digging into that particular aspect of the UNRWA-Hamas relationship. 

It seems the tipping point is likely that in the course of the Gaza war, the IDF has found troves of information that have revealed a lot more about how Hamas has infiltrated and used UNRWA, and they shared this information. The Secretary General, whom you and others seem to find especially trustworthy,  was immediate in his reaction that these people should be fired. He's been pretty blatantly biased against Israel, from my view, so the fact that he's not minimizing the Hamas infiltration of UNRWA suggests he's certainly convinced and knows how bad it looks for the UN's authority if one of its agencies is basically a terrorist haven.

This was really just a matter of time, though. UNRWA teaches antisemitism and terrorism in schools that are being funded by the EU, US, and other donors. It's done so for years. I keep thinking back to Corey Gil-Shuster's "Ask Project" on Youtube, and the old guys who about 8 years ago said that the real worry for peace was a decade from then (e.g. about now), because the young Palestinians were being taught militancy and hatred in the schools (many of them funded by  or run UNRWA) in a way that they'd never heard of before. And now here we are.

Won't be surprised if we find more revelations of UNRWA employees diverting aid and funds to Hamas in the coming months. Certainly, Hamas tunnels and storehouses have been found with aid marked UNRWA, but I suspect that's just a start. Hamas has to go. UNRWA should probably be next. Its continued existence is an aberration in the history of the UN and its core function can be better handled by the UNHCR. 

Edited January 28 by Ran

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Kyoshi said:

You're being deliberately disingenuous here. You know it makes a huge difference when headlines come out saying "Hamas beheads 40 babies," vs when they say "there was a baby among the murdered civilians." Ask yourself why someone would say the first if it isn't true and you'll get your answer.

Well there never was any claim that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. Even the 40 number relates to children being carried around on gurneys, and was made by just one journalist.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

Again it doesn’t seem that Israel has ever made any claims of beheaded babies, there are no public statements of the kind. This more a case of viral content over social media.
 

Either way, it doesn’t make much difference, because the scale and horror of the Hamas attack was appalling. Children were murdered and kidnapped. Anyone quibbling over whether babies were murdered or just beheaded really need to look inside themselves as what point they are trying to make. 

[kissdbyfire]

 

She talks specifically about beheaded babies. There were dozens more posts like this, on twitter and elsewhere. But of course, once the false & disgusting propaganda had done its job, most have been scrubbed off the Internet, as was done with so many other lies this Israeli government deliberately spread. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/unverified-allegations-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas-war-inflame-social-rcna119902

The most high-profile claim came Wednesday night when President Joe Biden said that he had seen photographic evidence of terrorists beheading children. The White House later clarified that Biden was referring to news reports about beheadings, which have not included or referred to photographic evidence.

Photos have been published by Hamas showing beheaded soldiers and the X account belonging to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu posted pictures on Thursday of babies killed and burned by Hamas. No photo evidence had been made public as of Thursday morning corroborating claims that babies had been beheaded. 

Unverified information spreads quickly on social media, particularly around breaking news events, reaching even larger audiences when it is shared by mainstream news outlets, politicians and people with large followings. Follow-ups that retract or add context are less likely to be repeated or reach the same audience.

Biden’s statement followed a series of news reports and comments from Israeli officials, most of which have since been softened or walked back. Easily debunked misinformation like fake press releases have circulated widely since the start of the war, but such stories often die down quickly once proven false. The claims about beheadings, difficult to verify, have continued to spread thanks in part to the lack of clarity.

There are many more like the above since the Israeli government can't sanitise posts and reports not done by them.

[Kyoshi]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Well there never was any claim that Hamas beheaded 40 babies. Even the 40 number relates to children being carried around on gurneys, and was made by just one journalist.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

Again it doesn’t seem that Israel has ever made any claims of beheaded babies, there are no public statements of the kind. This more a case of viral content over social media.
 

Either way, it doesn’t make much difference, because the scale and horror of the Hamas attack was appalling. Children were murdered and kidnapped. Anyone quibbling over whether babies were murdered or just beheaded really need to look inside themselves as what point they are trying to make. 

again, you're being deliberately disingenuous. i have looked inside myself and the point i'm trying to make is simply this - israel is a settler colonial ethno-fascist apartheid theocracy that propagates propaganda in an effort to justify its genocidal actions. i hope that's clear enough.

Edited January 28 by Kyoshi

[Heartofice]

13 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

again, you're being deliberately disingenuous. i have looked inside myself and the point i'm trying to make is simply this - israel is a settler colonial ethno-fascist apartheid theocracy that propagates propaganda in an effort to justify its genocidal actions. i hope that's clear enough.

Its progressive bingo night 

[kissdbyfire]

How can one refute such strong, well-argued and indisputable argument?

It simply cannot be done.

[Heartofice]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How can one refute such strong, well-argued and indisputable argument?

It simply cannot be done.

I think anyone who uses ‘settler colonial ethno-fascist apartheid theocracy’ in a sentence with a straight face should be treated as a parody and given the respect it deserves. 

Edited January 28 by Heartofice

[Kyoshi]

38 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think anyone who uses ‘settler colonial ethno-fascist apartheid theocracy’ in a sentence with a straight face should be treated as a parody and given the respect it deserves. 

Since you continued to deliberately miss the point, it seemed apt to be as ham-fisted as possible. I'm glad it finally landed.

[kissdbyfire]

Unnecessary explanation since it's been clear from day 1 that the israeli government shares Sidman's views on the situation of the hostages and what should happen to Gaza.

 

[Clueless Northman]

15 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well there seems to be enough information and evidence provided for a host of countries to cut ties and pause funding with the UNRWA, so it's unlikely it's just nothing.

These are countries whose governments would believe anything Israel told them, or at least would pretend to believe anything, and act accordingly, the same way you'd expect North Korea, Iran or Syria to believe anything Putin says about Ukraine. Or, to be blunt, Western countries are basically doing a blatant act of political whataboutism.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Its progressive bingo night 

Seriously... Only missed neo-Nazis.