The Commentator Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Most of the powerful houses got there through war and theft. The most prominent example are the Greyjoys. They murder and they steal. The Starks murdered a lot of families to get to where they could dominate the North. The Freys saw an opportunity given their location and built their precious bridge. They built the family wealth through hard work and smart investments. The earned their wealth. Walder was not above sending sons to the citadel to earn their way into the service of another household. He’s a much better father and head of the family when you put him beside Randyll Tarly, Hoster Tully, and Richard Stark. They are not known to provoke and start fights. It is the Starks who deserve most of the blame for the red wedding. Walder broke custom but it was mostly for his family’s survival. His family will pay but they don’t deserve to lose their wealth and none of them deserve to lose their lives. Petyr and Merrett are already murdered. No more of them need to die and become victims of the Starks in retaliation for the red wedding. It was a time of war. Robb broke his oaths. Tywin speaking for Joffrey laid out the conditions for a pardon. Walder did the prudent thing for his family. It was Cat’s stupidity and Robb’s deplorable conduct that got the Starks killed. Northern Sword, Darth Sidious, Moiraine Sedai and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Is this a serious post about House Frey, or just a thinly disguised vehicle for hatred of House Stark? I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. It's true that the construction of the bridge was an impressive accomplishment, and House Frey deserves to be rewarded for it. But that happened several centuries ago. Walder, old though he may be, had nothing to do with that. It's quite possible that the Freys who built the bridge were honest and industrious; but once it was built, the hard work was done, and it became a source of largely passive income. This may have caused succeeding generations of Freys to become complacent, self-indulgent, lazy, and risk-averse ("the late Lord Frey"). Regarding the Red Wedding, we know that guest right is considered sacred in this culture. We have no evidence that a state of war gives anyone the right to ignore it. Even in war, civilized nations have some basic code of honor, some rules about how low they will stoop in order to win. Otherwise, no one would be able to trust anyone else, and the realm would descend into chaos. The Red Wedding was based on treason and deception. House Frey turned its cloak against their overlords, the Tullys (treason), and ambushed them by pretending that they were still loyal (deception). The honorable action would have been for them to openly announce their refusal to join the rebellion against the Iron Throne, and to refuse Robb's request to use their bridge. Instead Walder allied his House first with one side, then the other, whichever seemed more profitable to him at the time. No one can trust Walder anymore; and after he dies, the shadow of his crimes will probably hang over his House for generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 From what I've observed, 100% of Frey sympathizers are TargaryenFanatics, and 100% of Frey sympathizers also blame the Rebels for betraying the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion. But if the entire Stark family "deserves" to be exterminated because Robb broke a vow to marry a woman he never met, wouldn't the entire Targaryen family also "deserve" to be exterminated for Rhaegar breaking his vow to his actual wife? Rhaegar's "deplorable conduct" was far worse than Robb's. This is the least of my disagreements I have with the original post, but it is a repeated contradictory stance I see amongst all the Targaryen+Frey enthusiasts. Northern Sword, Floki of the Ironborn, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and 3 others 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 19 hours ago, StarkTullies said: From what I've observed, 100% of Frey sympathizers are TargaryenFanatics, and 100% of Frey sympathizers also blame the Rebels for betraying the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion. But if the entire Stark family "deserves" to be exterminated because Robb broke a vow to marry a woman he never met, wouldn't the entire Targaryen family also "deserve" to be exterminated for Rhaegar breaking his vow to his actual wife? Rhaegar's "deplorable conduct" was far worse than Robb's. This is the least of my disagreements I have with the original post, but it is a repeated contradictory stance I see amongst all the Targaryen+Frey enthusiasts. And again, the O/P wholly misses the point that the Freys have violated every norm of Westerosi ethics, by: (a) murdering guests, (b) profaning a wedding, which is a religious ceremony. Their actions are grossly offensive to men, but much worse, in a society where 99% believe that the Gods are real, and take an active interest in human affairs, they are grossly offensive to the Gods. It matters not what any reader thinks of Robb breaking his marriage contract, or whether his fight was wise or not. Those considerations are simply irrelevant to what people think in-universe. What they think is "There is bad blood in that family, and it must be extirpated down to the last woman and child." Edited January 29 by SeanF Aldarion, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 and Northern Sword 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Why do we need another one of these ridiculous threads? This same 'point' could have been made in: 'Tully Madness' 'Hope for the Frey Family' Et Al 4 hours ago, SeanF said: And again, the O/P wholly misses the point I don't think they are just 'missing the point', I think they are being wilfully ignorant or (more likely) they do know and just refuse to acknowledge it. Alester Florent 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Why do we need another one of these ridiculous threads? This same 'point' could have been made in: 'Tully Madness' 'Hope for the Frey Family' Et Al Are you suggesting that meritocracy in the Frey family is determined by AI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Are you suggesting that meritocracy in the Frey family is determined by AI? Yes. These threads sound like they are generated by AI sometimes... Edited January 28 by Craving Peaches Alester Florent 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 9 hours ago, Aebram said: Is this a serious post about House Frey, or just a thinly disguised vehicle for hatred of House Stark? I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. It's always a troll thread when The Red Wedding is reduced to some legitimate resolution of a dispute between House Frey and treacherous House Stark over "honour" as if the murder or taking hostage of so many Northern and River Lords is something that never happened and can be brushed under the carpet. It's all about how Walder was wronged with the broken marriage agreement as if hacking off the heads of wedding guests under your roof or burning their armsmen to death in rigged feast tents is an irrelevance that their families will forget. A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII "Mercy!" Catelyn cried, but horns and drums and the clash of steel smothered her plea. Ser Ryman buried the head of his axe in Dacey's stomach. By then men were pouring in the other doors as well, mailed men in shaggy fur cloaks with steel in their hands. Northmen! She took them for rescue for half a heartbeat, till one of them struck the Smalljon's head off with two huge blows of his axe. Hope blew out like a candle in a storm. In the midst of slaughter, the Lord of the Crossing sat on his carved oaken throne, watching greedily. You'll get to recognise certain posters and their penchant for starting these sort of threads. kissdbyfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 The ones who died during the wedding were followers of Robb Stark. They followed him to war and he let them down when he chose love instead of honoring his oath to Lord Walder. It is appropriate to put the blame on Robb. Catelyn tried to steer him towards a sensible decision but Robb was a fool. Catelyn’s crime was the murder of the innocent boy, Jinglebells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 10 minutes ago, Darth Sidious said: Catelyn’s crime was the murder of the innocent boy, Jinglebells. Catelyn had lost it by that time so I say it was culpable homicide/manslaughter rather than murder due to diminished responsibility. astarkchoice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said: The ones who died during the wedding were followers of Robb Stark. Olyvar is still alive, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 15 hours ago, Aebram said: Is this a serious post about House Frey, No Quote or just a thinly disguised vehicle for hatred of House Stark? Yes Quote I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Don't. Craving Peaches, kissdbyfire and SeanF 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 On 1/27/2024 at 12:28 PM, The Commentator said: Most of the powerful houses got there through war and theft. The most prominent example are the Greyjoys. They murder and they steal. The Starks murdered a lot of families to get to where they could dominate the North. The Freys saw an opportunity given their location and built their precious bridge. They built the family wealth through hard work and smart investments. The earned their wealth. Walder was not above sending sons to the citadel to earn their way into the service of another household. He’s a much better father and head of the family when you put him beside Randyll Tarly, Hoster Tully, and Richard Stark. They are not known to provoke and start fights. It is the Starks who deserve most of the blame for the red wedding. Walder broke custom but it was mostly for his family’s survival. His family will pay but they don’t deserve to lose their wealth and none of them deserve to lose their lives. Petyr and Merrett are already murdered. No more of them need to die and become victims of the Starks in retaliation for the red wedding. It was a time of war. Robb broke his oaths. Tywin speaking for Joffrey laid out the conditions for a pardon. Walder did the prudent thing for his family. It was Cat’s stupidity and Robb’s deplorable conduct that got the Starks killed. It's a very fine line between "earned" and "extorted." But it's a mistake to say that an entire House is good or bad, meritocratic or autocratic. The Freys bulldozed lesser houses to become their vassals, just like everyone else. They impose taxes and tariffs on goods generated or passing through their lands, just like everyone else. They made war on their rivals, just like everyone else. And they had good lords and bad lords, just like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 On 1/28/2024 at 1:28 PM, the trees have eyes said: It's always a troll thread when The Red Wedding is reduced to some legitimate resolution of a dispute between House Frey and treacherous House Stark over "honour" as if the murder or taking hostage of so many Northern and River Lords is something that never happened and can be brushed under the carpet. It's all about how Walder was wronged with the broken marriage agreement as if hacking off the heads of wedding guests under your roof or burning their armsmen to death in rigged feast tents is an irrelevance that their families will forget. If he'd have just withdrew his levies and protected Frey land against all comers like he did in the beginning of AGoT, absolutely no one would have blamed him. If he'd have withdrawn his levies from Robb and declared for Joffrey, absolutely no one would blame him if he had his troops track down Robb and behead him on the spot. Instead he essentially welcome a new negotiation under a flag of truce and butchered someone he just agreed to be an ally to. The closest thing in Westeros history to what Walder Frey did was the Dornish killing Daeron I at a parlay under a white flag, and even at that point the crown knew the Dornish were enemies who they expected to honor the white flag. Killing Craster under his own roof is probably a distant second or third if you've got a third one I forgot.. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, the trees have eyes and Northern Sword 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Freys Merrit the rope. Terrorthatflapsinthenight9, kissdbyfire and the trees have eyes 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 On 1/29/2024 at 11:47 AM, John Suburbs said: It's a very fine line between "earned" and "extorted." But it's a mistake to say that an entire House is good or bad, meritocratic or autocratic. The Freys bulldozed lesser houses to become their vassals, just like everyone else. They impose taxes and tariffs on goods generated or passing through their lands, just like everyone else. They made war on their rivals, just like everyone else. And they had good lords and bad lords, just like everyone else. Charging passers a toll for the use of a bridge which they invested in is not extortion. It is fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Nan, there are people worse than him. Gregor being one example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Oh look, I’ve stumbled into the comedy forum. Nittanian and SeanF 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 18 hours ago, The Commentator said: Charging passers a toll for the use of a bridge which they invested in is not extortion. It is fair. What about forcing someone to marry your daughter when he is on his way to lift the siege of your liege lord? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said: What about forcing someone to marry your daughter when he is on his way to lift the siege of your liege lord? You want to be a part of breaking the king's peace and also want someone else to be part of it? Better pay up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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