House of the Dragon: The Black & Green Trailers

[Westeros]

Not just one but two trailers have dropped. A Black Trailer and a Green Trailer, further doubling own on the sides in the conflict.

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[The Bard of Banefort]

Looks like they’re really going to showcase Aegon more this season, which is promising. TGC has shown a lot of potential so far.

It’s interesting how Aemond already seems to be subtly replacing Daemon in terms of marketing. It reminds me how Stranger Things relied so heavily on Winona Ryder to promote the show at first, only to then switch the focus almost entirely to the kids. Ewan must really be driving online traffic.

Still no sign of Alys, curiously.

Well, I was way off-base about assuming they’d hype Winterfell. There have only been slight hints to the northern storyline so far. As an aside, Jace is in the scene at Dragonstone where Rheanyra declares her intention to fight for the throne, so either that scene takes place at the end of the season, or the Winterfell arc is a short one.

I’m sorry, but I can’t get past how stupid the Alicent-misunderstands-Viserys’-deathbed-ramblings twist is. It’s so, so bad.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m sorry, but I can’t get past how stupid the Alicent-misunderstands-Viserys’-deathbed-ramblings twist is. It’s so, so bad.

God forbid a woman have ambition and agency of her own even if it might make her unsympathetic, amiright?

[Lord Varys]

Can anyone sort out the dragons?

[The hairy bear]

The looks of the show is getting better with every season. Many truly amazing shots.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anyone sort out the dragons?

Apparently that’s Sunfyre in the Dragonpit.

[Ran]

The bright green one is obviously Moondancer, rather older and larger than intended, but then Baela is older as well, so that fits.

I think that's Syrax we're seeing flying towards Harrenhal and past the Isle of Faces.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Should we read anything into them dropping the trailers on the same day that 3BP premiered? From what I’ve read, D&D have been very careful not to say anything negative about GOT/HBO/GRRM on their press tour, so things don’t seem to be too bad at the moment.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

God forbid a woman have ambition and agency of her own even if it might make her unsympathetic, amiright?

Having both sides use Viserys last words/wishes as their justification is actually a nice way to make them less disgusting powergrabbers. George's Greens let the old man rot in his bed. And making Alicent ambitious for her own brood isn't really agency in modern sense, especially since Aegon is so manifestly unsuited for the job.

If we had the book scenario they would have to actually explain how Rhaenyra & Daemon neither saw the coup coming nor prepared for a struggle or war. Dalton Greyjoy is more prepared than they ever were...

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apparently that’s Sunfyre in the Dragonpit.

Yes, there are multiple shots of him but who is the pale white one?

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The bright green one is obviously Moondancer, rather older and larger than intended, but then Baela is older as well, so that fits.

Is it Baela on Moondancer doing that fast plunge down or was that a fast cut from her to Aegon? If it is Baela then the chances that she will be at Rook's Rest are pretty good. Would be a nice way to spice things up.

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Having both sides use Viserys last words/wishes as their justification is actually a nice way to make them less disgusting powergrabbers. George's Greens let the old man rot in his bed. And making Alicent ambitious for her own brood isn't really agency in modern sense, especially since Aegon is so manifestly unsuited for the job.

If we had the book scenario they would have to actually explain how Rhaenyra & Daemon neither saw the coup coming nor prepared for a struggle or war. Dalton Greyjoy is more prepared than they ever were...

Yes, there are multiple shots of him but who is the pale white one?

Is it Baela on Moondancer doing that fast plunge down or was that a fast cut from her to Aegon? If it is Baela then the chances that she will be at Rook's Rest are pretty good. Would be a nice way to spice things up.

Alicent’s rationale could be that Daemon is a psychopath who killed his own wife and would definitely murder her children to secure the throne. They made Daemon so obviously evil on the show that it’s silly for Alicent not to expect that to happen if Rhaenyra takes the throne. Crowning Aegon would be about saving her family.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

God forbid a woman have ambition and agency of her own even if it might make her unsympathetic, amiright?

Unironically, women who show ambition ajd agency tend to be liked less afaik.

So...

Besides it's really hard to have a both sides narrative if one of them is just wrong from the get go.

[Him of Many Faces]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Besides it's really hard to have a both sides narrative if one of them is just wrong from the get go.

That's why they should have made the maester conspiracy part of the plot.

[House Cambodia]

I kinda like this "ALL MUST CHOOSE" line. Clearly it's goading us into taking sides, as many fans have done already. For me, it's a trick - my take is that the behaviour of both sides will be appalling, and that connects to a theme that becomes increasingly strong in the Dunk & Egg tales. The Dance of Dragons conflict will be repeated to lesser intensity in the First Blackfyre Rebellion in which the smallfolk who just want to grow their turnips and stay alive are dragged into a bigfolk conflict; if they choose the wrong side they die, if they choose the right side they merely end up impoverished if they're lucky. The theme comes back into prominence in AFFC especially in Septon Maribald's 'Broken Men' speech. As I've suggested in another thread, Fire and Blood focuses on the bigfolk, but we should remember those who stand to lose who have nothing to do with the war.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Alicent’s rationale could be that Daemon is a psychopath who killed his own wife and would definitely murder her children to secure the throne. They made Daemon so obviously evil on the show that it’s silly for Alicent not to expect that to happen if Rhaenyra takes the throne. Crowning Aegon would be about saving her family.

That would be motivation/justification to kill Daemon ... but it doesn't make Aegon a good or even mediocre potential king. It doesn't give good motivation for the coup.

The show's narrative of 'Viserys changing his mind on his deathbed' repairs the second major flaw in George's outline - the biggest blunder being Daemon and Rhaenyra not preparing for the succession struggle that's firmly on the table at least since 120 AC, counting on teenagers to forge alliances they should have made personally years ago -, namely, that the Greens don't publicly announce Viserys changed the succession on his deathbed or a some days before, forging his last will and testament.

That would have been the obvious way to make Aegon the rightful king in the eyes of the public. Instead we have Eustace portray Aegon as a pious and dutiful son by way of him rejecting the crown that was Rhaenyra's by right ... which makes it clear that Otto and Alicent made no attempt to paint Aegon's coronation as something his father supported in the end, implicitly confirming they are traitors to the late king and his wishes. That is a silly way to stage a coup.

The king's word and wishes are the only real law in this land, so not using this authority - real, misunderstood, or forged - is stupid.

The show actually made that better. Had George included something like that in FaB his AGoT appendix narrative of Rhaenyra contesting the rise of Aegon II would have actually been accurate again. Who could possibly prove the king didn't have a change of heart on his deathbed? No one. The Blacks could just (want to) believe Rhaenyra was still the rightful heir. Like Stannis believes he is, etc.

Alicent acting on behalf of her children, etc. would just reinforce the evil stepmother/slut character she is in the book. We got some nuance there in the show. Alicent is not in the game for herself or her blood, is not the clichéd protector/arbiter of her sons, like book Alicent who is clearly based in some parts on Graves' Livia, but rather somebody who is conflicted because she is part of a larger whole.

We also see this with Otto, who isn't just a powerhungry asshole but a guy who is both pushed by his brother as well as deluding himself his/Hightower interests are the interests of the Realm. I think that is actually the best way to show him becoming imperious by way of growing attached to his high office.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Besides it's really hard to have a both sides narrative if one of them is just wrong from the get go.

It is not a two sides narrative ... it is a narrative in which neither side are clean or white heroes since the war as such is wrong, but there is still one side that is clearly worse than the other. And consistently so, especially in the source material.

The show added nuance to the Greens, but keeps them as the faction who is 'more evil/corrupt'.

[Lord Varys]

By the way, a Black trailer is silly as the show neither named nor established Rhaenyra's faction so far, so only book readers know the name. Why they would call themselves that is, of course, equally unclear as Rhaenyra's dress was dropped completely.

Edited March 22 by Lord Varys

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be motivation/justification to kill Daemon ... but it doesn't make Aegon a good or even mediocre potential king. It doesn't give good motivation for the coup.

The show's narrative of 'Viserys changing his mind on his deathbed' repairs the second major flaw in George's outline - the biggest blunder being Daemon and Rhaenyra not preparing for the succession struggle that's firmly on the table at least since 120 AC, counting on teenagers to forge alliances they should have made personally years ago -, namely, that the Greens don't publicly announce Viserys changed the succession on his deathbed or a some days before, forging his last will and testament.

That would have been the obvious way to make Aegon the rightful king in the eyes of the public. Instead we have Eustace portray Aegon as a pious and dutiful son by way of him rejecting the crown that was Rhaenyra's by right ... which makes it clear that Otto and Alicent made no attempt to paint Aegon's coronation as something his father supported in the end, implicitly confirming they are traitors to the late king and his wishes. That is a silly way to stage a coup.

The king's word and wishes are the only real law in this land, so not using this authority - real, misunderstood, or forged - is stupid.

The show actually made that better. Had George included something like that in FaB his AGoT appendix narrative of Rhaenyra contesting the rise of Aegon II would have actually been accurate again. Who could possibly prove the king didn't have a change of heart on his deathbed? No one. The Blacks could just (want to) believe Rhaenyra was still the rightful heir. Like Stannis believes he is, etc.

Alicent acting on behalf of her children, etc. would just reinforce the evil stepmother/slut character she is in the book. We got some nuance there in the show. Alicent is not in the game for herself or her blood, is not the clichéd protector/arbiter of her sons, like book Alicent who is clearly based in some parts on Graves' Livia, but rather somebody who is conflicted because she is part of a larger whole.

We also see this with Otto, who isn't just a powerhungry asshole but a guy who is both pushed by his brother as well as deluding himself his/Hightower interests are the interests of the Realm. I think that is actually the best way to show him becoming imperious by way of growing attached to his high office.

It is not a two sides narrative ... it is a narrative in which neither side are clean or white heroes since the war as such is wrong, but there is still one side that is clearly worse than the other. And consistently so, especially in the source material.

The show added nuance to the Greens, but keeps them as the faction who is 'more evil/corrupt'.

I completely disagree. It’s kill or be killed. The Greens would never be safe if Rhaenyra took the throne, and vice versa. I don’t see how Alicent recognizing this makes her a wicked stepmother. Her caring more about Rhaenyra’s claim than her own children’s safety would just be nonsensical.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I completely disagree. It’s kill or be killed. The Greens would never be safe if Rhaenyra took the throne, and vice versa. I don’t see how Alicent recognizing this makes her a wicked stepmother. Her caring more about Rhaenyra’s claim than her own children’s safety would just be nonsensical.

Again, even if we go with your idea there ... why not just destroy Daemon in the years between his marriage to Rhaenyra and Viserys' death? He is not the heir and he can be ruined, exiled (again) or killed. There are precedents for such murders. This would be infinitely easier than a coup or succession war since the latter will involve much more bloodwork and kinslaying to keep Aegon on the throne. Rhaenyra and her entire bloodline have to go then ... as show Otto correctly points out.

The point of making Aegon king is to make Aegon king. That is the agenda, and nothing else.

If Alicent were truly afraid for the lives of her children because of Daemon she would have found a way to get rid of him. She effectively runs the government in episode 8 ... and years ago her foot sex buddy killed two crucial men very easily and effectively.

The idea that Rhaenyra can only sit safely on her throne when Alicent's sons are dead is not suggested by either book or show. Rhaenyra is the chosen and anointed heir as per royal decree. It doesn't hinge on her not having trueborn (half-)brothers. Alicent's children would be safe unless they plotted treason. If it were different, Viserys I himself would have found ways to neutralize Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron (say, by sending them to the Wall, make one of them a KG, maester, septon, etc.).

Vice versa it is not the same as the show itself depicts. Rhaenyra and her bloodline have to go because they are a threat to Aegon since Rhaenyra was the chosen and anointed heir. That is what Otto says. Rhaenyra and Daemon never have such thoughts, nor does Alicent truly believe stuff like that (in episode 6 she tells Aegon shit like that to cut him off from Rhaenyra's sons, but she doesn't really believe that).

But to be sure ... the show didn't turn the two women into besties. We only have their honest reconciliation in episode 8 which is then followed by the deathbed word ... which give Alicent final permission to crown Aegon. She now is not an evil bitch turning against her late husband the moment he dies ... she genuinely thinks they were both on the same page in the end.

Book Alicent's portrayal is that of a willing seductress (possibly sleeping with Viserys prior to Aemma's death) marrying a man she clearly never loved (we can draw that both from Viserys' rotting in his bedchamber as well as from post-Dance Alicent never taking about her husband). There is little indication in the book that her father pushed her into things against her will. Her reading exploits with King Jaehaerys I show that she had a lot of ambition and agency on her own ... there was nothing the Hightowers or Otto personally could gain from having his daughter care for the senile old man. This is the narrator telling us that Alicent Hightower wanted to be close to royalty. She is conceived as a Targaryen groupie, basically.

Later on Alicent and her inability to get along with her stepdaughter is what sows the seeds of the Dance. It is her character flaws that are the problem, her toxic remarks, her unwillingness to accept the decree of her lord husband and king. Otto might play a minor role there in the book, too, but he is gone when things really sour between Rhaenyra and Alicent and he also had nothing to do with ensuring the children would not get along with each other.

Book Rhaenyra might also share a portion of the blame there, but she is never portrayed as the active party. No records about toxic remarks from her or her side. More glaring are things in the book because of the age gap between the two women - no 7-14-year-old is to be blamed for not getting along with her stepmother if said stepmother is ten years older. There are such things as the accountability of adults as compared to childish behavior of ... children and adolescents. Alicent could have won Rhaenyra's love or at least affection. They could have worked as a family. That they did not is, as per the narrative, Alicent's fault. With the incest thing going on there were quite a few ways to tie the branches of the family together ... but that wasn't what she wanted. Her only goal was to make Aegon king, not to make, say, a son or grandson of Jacaerys and Helaena king. 

This is why the template of the book Alicent actually seems to be Livia from I, Claudius. Alicent is the evil stepmother who wants to push aside her stepdaughter (and her children) for the benefit of putting her own (favorite?) son on the throne. That is the only agenda, and everything else serves that endgame. Alicent's feigns affection and love to Viserys but only uses him as an instrument to get what she wants, not caring for his wishes.

The show made things more interesting by making Rhaenyra and Alicent not die-hard enemies from some years after the birth of Aegon and Aemond but made things more complex. They also retained the complexity George included in the narrative - which most people either ignore or overlook - that Otto Hightower was actually the architect of Queen Rhaenyra. He made her the Heir Apparent. In the show Alicent partially retains that view, a view that was her father's originally.

That all said - I also don't like the lack of Alicent's ambition. Her being unhappy with her role as queen is silly. That is what she wanted - or should have wanted in the show, even if she didn't love Viserys - it shouldn't have been something her father pushed on her with her not being able to feel comfortable in that role years after her marriage and some time after the birth of her elder children.

But things like the Green Council cutting her out because she was the woman actually do make sense in a scenario where she is not actually an evil scheming bitch feigning affection and love for the king while secretly plotting with her evil cronies all the time. Still, I'd have preferred it if Alicent's role as queen had slowly pushed her into a position where she was ordering around her father and the council rather than being treated as a pawn by them. They could have still made coup plans behind her back ... only for them quickly realizing that this was a grievous mistake when Alicent learned what they were doing.

[Potsk]

On 3/22/2024 at 3:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Why they would call themselves that is, of course, equally unclear as Rhaenyra's dress was dropped completely.

Because the greens have a green field on their banners, and the blacks have the default Targaryen black field.

[Khloey]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Again, even if we go with your idea there ... why not just destroy Daemon in the years between his marriage to Rhaenyra and Viserys' death? He is not the heir and he can be ruined, exiled (again) or killed. There are precedents for such murders. This would be infinitely easier than a coup or succession war since the latter will involve much more bloodwork and kinslaying to keep Aegon on the throne. Rhaenyra and her entire bloodline have to go then ... as show Otto correctly points out.

How could he ever be ruined as long as his brother lives ? He's a Targaryen prince. Everytime he was exiled, he managed to get back into his brother's good graces.

They could have taken the risk of killing Daemon before Visery's death, but it's also a big gamble to take. You gotta be sure your target will effectively get killed, otherwise you face his vengeance. And Viserys could have punished them if he ever found out. Or Rhaenyra herself. I doubt she would have left the murder of her husband go unpunished.

In the end, taking a shot at Daemon after the King's death and after splitting the realm's loyalties in half was the better option.

[Back in Black-Snow]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:04 AM, Lord Varys said:

By the way, a Black trailer is silly as the show neither named nor established Rhaenyra's faction so far, so only book readers know the name. Why they would call themselves that is, of course, equally unclear as Rhaenyra's dress was dropped completely.

The last Episode is titled The Black Queen. There is that...