Zorral Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 (edited) 9 hours ago, Wall Flower said: I should have clarified that the main benefits were to the landowners and factory owners but I guess the capacity for greater food production had some wider benefits. It must be nearly 50 years since I studied this stuff but a quick google to refresh my memory revealed that the top 100 wealthiest landowners in the 19th century were all members of House of Lords, so farm workers never stood a chance. Yet, wider food production ... left so many Brits so nutritionally deprived that a most significant portion of volunteers and conscripts at the start of of WWI were so badly off they didn't even reach the height minimum for an English soldier. It hardly sounds like even approaching an equitable distribution of wealth and resources even inside the UK from the plundering of the resources of others for the past few centuries -- and leaving the plundered populations worse off in the main, including health, just like in the UK. As noted previously -- "and always wrong!" Edited April 19 by Zorral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 I’m just scratching my head as to what point the above is trying to actually make? Some British soldiers were malnourished during WW1 therefore we should never have industrialised and should have maintained the much better feudal system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 5 hours ago, Heartofice said: Man I wish that Industrialisation and Capitalism shit hadn't happened, I hate having medicine and not starving. It sucks. Not how it works, but nice try i guess?. This vision of how things are is so out of touch with reality that it tracks that you would be a proponent of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 5 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said: Not how it works, but nice try i guess?. This vision of how things are is so out of touch with reality that it tracks that you would be a proponent of it. What is the counter factual where industrialisation and capitalism don’t happen then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, Zorral said: Yet, wider food production ... left so many Brits so nutritionally deprived that a most significant portion of volunteers and conscripts at the start of of WWI were so badly off they didn't even reach the height minimum for an English soldier. It hardly sounds like even approaching an equitable distribution of wealth and resources even inside the UK from the plundering of the resources of others for the past few centuries -- and leaving the plundered populations worse off in the main, including health, just like in the UK. As noted previously -- "and always wrong!" Conservatives view history through the rose lens of 'member berries and intentional amnesia in order to justify their worldview. These facts are all too inconvenient and threaten the logic and foundation of their understanding and approach to life (social, political, and economic). Nuance and honesty are anathema. Heartofice and Prince of the North 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 18 minutes ago, Heartofice said: What is the counter factual where industrialisation and capitalism don’t happen then? Who is actually arguing against them happening? It's kinda telling that you equate imperialism and colonialism with industrialization and capitalism. Prince of the North, Matrim Fox Cauthon and Week 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 20 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Who is actually arguing against them happening? It's kinda telling that you equate imperialism and colonialism with industrialization and capitalism. Eh? Conversation moved on to industrialisation mate. Keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 8 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Eh? Conversation moved on to industrialisation mate. Keep up. No, you just decided that's where it was going. I've been keeping up. You switched the goalposts when people talked about the problems with colonialism to meaning that it was just about industrialization and capitalism, and then DEMANDED that people justify why they disliked industrialization. I mean, sure - why defend something that sucks when you can defend something that sucks less? But you're the one who attempted to change the conversation. Matrim Fox Cauthon and Prince of the North 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 4 minutes ago, Kalbear said: No, you just decided that's where it was going. I've been keeping up. You switched the goalposts when people talked about the problems with colonialism to meaning that it was just about industrialization and capitalism, and then DEMANDED that people justify why they disliked industrialization. I mean, sure - why defend something that sucks when you can defend something that sucks less? But you're the one who attempted to change the conversation. Not really. Conversation was about industrialisation. I made a statement that wasn’t controversial and yet somehow it still managed to set off the same outrage merchants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Just now, Heartofice said: Not really. Conversation was about industrialisation. I made a statement that wasn’t controversial and yet somehow it still managed to set off the same outrage merchants. I can bring receipts, but honestly I don't see why - you'll just spin it in some other way. If you like we can talk about how shitty the UK's version of industrialization was as well, but the original outrage that you had was about how colonialism was NOT the reason that Britain became so amazing - that's what set off your outrage merchandising and caused you to get all atwitter - and other people disagreed. As you say, multiple things can be true at once. In this case, you being wrong about where the conversation was, you being wrong about the massive benefits of colonialism to the British empire, AND you being wrong about how beneficial Britain's version of industrialization were are all in play! Week, Prince of the North and Matrim Fox Cauthon 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 31 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Eh? Conversation moved on to industrialisation mate. Keep up. No, that was all you. Mate. Kalbear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Any chance we could get the conversation back to contemporary UK politics? Tears of Lys and DaveSumm 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, mormont said: Any chance we could get the conversation back to contemporary UK politics? Another term of Tory rule, and children working in factories in terrible conditions *will* be contemporary. Anyway … my take on the Menzies fiasco is he got lured back to a flat by a supposed make prostitute where a gang waited, and was told to pay up. He has form. Rippounet and Kalbear 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liffguard Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 13 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said: Another term of Tory rule, and children working in factories in terrible conditions *will* be contemporary. There aren't any factories, they'll be picking fruit and running scam call centres. Which Tyler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 Issuing apologies for trying to stop idiots getting their heads kicked in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 5 hours ago, Liffguard said: There aren't any factories, they'll be picking fruit and running scam call centres. There are still the slaughter houses and meat packing plants, where children are working right now, at least in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 13 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Issuing apologies for trying to stop idiots getting their heads kicked in now. You mean the guy who was 'visibly jewish'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 16 minutes ago, Heartofice said: You mean the guy who was 'visibly jewish'? Yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Yeah. You don’t think a police officer telling someone they look too Jewish might be an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: You don’t think a police officer telling someone they look too Jewish might be an issue? If he did it would be an issue. But he didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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