US Politics: The Bully Culprit

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, maarsen said:

The Republicans won that election and then escalated the war in Vietnam to Laos and Cambodia. If more protestors had worked to get out the youth vote McGovern, who was antiwar, would have done much better.

McGovern was 72 after Nixon had already conducted most of the bombing campaigns in Laos and Cambodia.  The 68 election - which included the infamous protests and unrest in Chicago during the Democratic Convention - was between Nixon and Hubert Humphrey.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 minute ago, Zorral said:

Still repeating that same old fictional tale.  Just like the early second wave feminists burned their bras.  They did not do that anymore than the vets were spit upon.

Well, if that's inaccurate, I retract it. My most recent encounter of this era was Will Bunch's After the Ivory Tower Falls. It could be that my memory of the exact details are fuzzy, but there was plenty of undisciplined and outright bad behavior done in the mid to late 60s by student antiwar protestors. My point does not rest on the truth or untruth of vet spitting.

[IheartIheartTesla]

The 1968 Democratic convention was absolute chaos, the Democrats themselves were in disarray, Bobby Kennedy had just been assassinated, and Daley used excessive force in trying to clamp down on protestors. The US was also directly involved in Vietnam. There are a few differences with now, for starters the Democrats are by and large united, and police tactics are (believe it or not) more evolved than then.

I think another analogy to consider is how much the George Floyd/BLM protests from a few years ago persuaded voters. I think we'll see that responses to campus unrest are already baked into many people's voting preferences. 

[Dawn Vibration]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

The Republicans won that election and then escalated the war in Vietnam to Laos and Cambodia. If more protestors had worked to get out the youth vote McGovern, who was antiwar, would have done much better. Getting involved and doing the work does more than yelling at the sidelines. If you want to protest and do the hard organizing work, all the better.

The youth were right about the protests.

Just like they are now.

Biden is now shitting on them more, lying that the protests have been violent (they have been thanks to the cops that have been sent out to crush them because he can't handle Israel not blindly being supported), crying students have no right to "disorder" (sounding like an authoritarian here at the very least) is going to cost him re-election. He needs the youth vote, instead he's shitting all over them blindly throwing out theyre anti semitic, violent, out of control.

I can say I am not voting for him or the democratic party.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Well, if that's inaccurate, I retract it. My most recent encounter of this era was Will Bunch's After the Ivory Tower Falls. It could be that my memory of the exact details are fuzzy, but there was plenty of undisciplined and outright bad behavior done in the mid to late 60s by student antiwar protestors. My point does not rest on the truth or untruth of vet spitting.

And just like now there was outright lying and reporting and repeating of what didn't happen.  And just like now there there were provocateurs, plants, and all the rest to make the protest and activist movement people look bad.  And just like now the media was totally complicit -- until it wasn't financially/eyeball convenient, so they started to change their stories.  Plus the activists and antiwar people were a lot more fun.  And just know, there are all sorts of middle-aged, elderly (white) men writing up the history who weren't really there to start with.

These propaganda wars didn't start with Kuwait and premie babies torn from their incubators.

Edited May 2 by Zorral

[Phylum of Alexandria]

4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

And just like now there was outright lying and reporting and repeating of what didn't happen.  And just like now there there were provocateurs, plants, and all the rest to make the protest and activist movement people look bad.  And just like now the media was totally complicit -- until it wasn't financially/eyeball convenient, so they started to change their stories.  Plus the activists and antiwar people were a lot more fun.  And just know, there are all sorts of middle-aged, elderly (white) men writing up the history who weren't really there to start with.

These propaganda wars didn't start with Kuwait and premie babies torn from their incubators.

Ooookay.

Let me put it more simply. Would you disagree with the take that civil rights groups like SNCC were better disciplined and better organized as a whole compared to the later student antiwar protests? I'm not talking about the justice of the cause, nor am I making blanket criticisms of all of the antiwar protesters. But because they were less disciplined, they had more variation in how people approached protest. 

My point was to say that SNCC and similar groups had their shit together, whereas protest later resembled a herd of cats. No need to get distracted beyond that simple point.

[DanteGabriel]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

McGovern was 72 after Nixon had already conducted most of the bombing campaigns in Laos and Cambodia.  The 68 election - which included the infamous protests and unrest in Chicago during the Democratic Convention - was between Nixon and Hubert Humphrey.

I'd also argue that the '72 election shaped a couple generations of Democratic electoral strategists, as they've never run anyone anywhere near as liberal as McGovern since.

Not saying they made the right choice, especially over time, as I've also been frustrated by their predilection to "centrists" and it's contributed to the party's rightward, corporate drift.

I wish there was a way to destroy the "liberal is a dirty word" paradigm that has gripped this country for over 50 years.

Edited May 2 by DanteGabriel

[DMC]

1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'd also argue that the '72 election may have shaped a couple generations of Democratic electoral strategists, as they've never run anyone anywhere near close to as liberal as McGovern since.

It did.  You can trace a line from that result to Clinton’s “triangulation” abandoning meat and potatoes New Deal liberalism.  I actually think, win or lose, the Biden presidency’s legacy will be a return to that for the party.

Should also be emphasized even with the shift in strategy/aversion to leftists, the Dems still lost 49 states twelve years later.

[Kalbear]

Yeah, the whole idea that liberalism was somehow poisoned and people are afraid of it because it was  made into a boogeyman when it was otherwise perfectly dandy seems to ignore the actual viewpoints of Americans. There have been a whole lot of chances for the US to show how incredibly liberal and progressive it could be if only it was unfettered, and it always ends up not being nearly the case that people think it'll be. The latest iteration of this is that Trump of all people was able to energize voters in a whole lot of places and significantly increase voter turnout in a whole lot of categories. 

[DanteGabriel]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, the whole idea that liberalism was somehow poisoned and people are afraid of it because it was  made into a boogeyman when it was otherwise perfectly dandy seems to ignore the actual viewpoints of Americans. There have been a whole lot of chances for the US to show how incredibly liberal and progressive it could be if only it was unfettered, and it always ends up not being nearly the case that people think it'll be. The latest iteration of this is that Trump of all people was able to energize voters in a whole lot of places and significantly increase voter turnout in a whole lot of categories. 

Fair. Let's cut to the chase - I wish more Americans were as just and kind as our PR says.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Ooookay.

Let me put it more simply. Would you disagree with the take that civil rights groups like SNCC were better disciplined and better organized as a whole compared to the later student antiwar protests? I'm not talking about the justice of the cause, nor am I making blanket criticisms of all of the antiwar protesters. But because they were less disciplined, they had more variation in how people approached protest. 

My point was to say that SNCC and similar groups had their shit together, whereas protest later resembled a herd of cats. No need to get distracted beyond that simple point.

My response is, like the media's breathless coverage, your question is a distraction from the horrors the students are protesting, and making the reason they are protesting irrelevant.  Which is the plan, yanno, so thnx so much for falling for it.

And, o yes, thank you also very much for your patronizing, condescending attitude.

Edited May 2 by Zorral

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

My response is, like the media's breathless coverage, your question is a distraction from the horrors the students are protesting, and making the reason they are protesting irrelevant.  Which is the plan, yanno, so thnx so much for falling for it.

And, o yes, thank you also very much for your patronizing, condescending attitude.

My comments haven't even focused on the Gaza protests. They are more general. By that logic, every other comment on some other topic has distracted from the horrors the students are protesting. Why am I singled out?

I wasn't trying to be condescending; just confused and exasperated with this suspicion around my comments. If you don't want to follow the particular thread I've been responding to, by all means ignore it.

[Dawn Vibration]

LuckColumbia is lucky no one was killed.
https://www.thecity.nyc/2024/05/02/nypd-officer-fired-gun-columbia-hamilton-hall-raid/
 

[Zorral]

Doubling down, tripling down, They wear diapers for him. 

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/888fec97ded6d101ab9589b553c67d74237c9fa65dc4a31dca8abbeafe4e1821.jpg

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[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Doubling down, tripling down, They wear diapers for him. 

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/888fec97ded6d101ab9589b553c67d74237c9fa65dc4a31dca8abbeafe4e1821.jpg

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/addae62970113a6ffbe836cfa47a7b2079fa5a89920e6f828f01323110e3fbbb.jpg

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cca8e4421d41522a0b196df93d1ed9734f1fd016b63909a82a4b7bfc05576e7d.jpg

 

WTAF. I guess being able to turn an adult wearing diapers into a positive worthy of celebration is quite something? 

[Fragile Bird]

24 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Doubling down, tripling down, They wear diapers for him. 

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/888fec97ded6d101ab9589b553c67d74237c9fa65dc4a31dca8abbeafe4e1821.jpg

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/addae62970113a6ffbe836cfa47a7b2079fa5a89920e6f828f01323110e3fbbb.jpg

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cca8e4421d41522a0b196df93d1ed9734f1fd016b63909a82a4b7bfc05576e7d.jpg

 

Wtf?

[The Big Stink]

I can't think of a protest movement that has been as counter-productive as these present ones. Everyone from loser right wingers to CNN has developed a visceral disgust for the protestors. These jokers have hurt the Palestinian movement almost irreparably. The protestors needed to do a better job of guarding against outside agitators and other assorted weirdos.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, The Big Stink said:

I can't think of a protest movement that has been as counter-productive as these present ones. Everyone from loser right wingers to CNN has developed a visceral disgust for the protestors. These jokers have hurt the Palestinian movement almost irreparably. The protestors needed to do a better job of guarding against outside agitators and other assorted weirdos.

Care to explain why you think that? Especially regarding the bolded part.

[DanteGabriel]

3 hours ago, The Big Stink said:

I can't think of a protest movement that has been as counter-productive as these present ones. Everyone from loser right wingers to CNN has developed a visceral disgust for the protestors. These jokers have hurt the Palestinian movement almost irreparably. The protestors needed to do a better job of guarding against outside agitators and other assorted weirdos.

That's what I hear about every protest movement. Black Lives Matter perhaps most recently. If CNN is showing a visceral disgust for them, while still trying to keep a straight face about Trump and the Republican Party's descent into the cult of Fascist McJesus, that's probably solid justification to nuke CNN from orbit.

Can anyone cite of a student protest movement that was NOT vindicated by history?

Edited May 3 by DanteGabriel

[Gorn]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Care to explain why you think that? Especially regarding the bolded part.

I mean, they're calling for "intifada" (meaning, a terrorist suicide bombing campaign against Israeli civilians) and for Palestine "from the river to the sea" (meaning, destruction of Israel). Maybe some protestors don't understand what those terms actually mean, but the most charitable interpretation is that they are idiots and not actively malicious.

You might call that a minority of radicals, but I didn't see anyone from the protest movement calling them out or distancing themselves from such stances. In fact, doing that will get you shouted down as a "zionist". Which somehow became a dirty term despite actually meaning "someone who thinks Israel should continue to exist".