Heroes

[aeu]

It happened in the museum, no?

[EHK for Darwin]

Grozeng, I'd like to think its just perception and overanalyzing, but I seriously spent half the episode cringing and shaking my head, resisting the desperate urge to reach for the fast-forward button. Too much of the dialog was just painfully expository and simplistic. You have random characters tossing out lame platitudes about 'saving the world' every 5 minutes when only one of them has seen enough to actually use that phrase without sounding like a nutcase.

They want to move the character and the plot from point A to point D, but they either completely ignore the points in between or try to ram letters in there that just don't fit. The acting is sketchy. The characters inconsistent in motivation and reaction. Some of those motivations and reactions being downright unbelievable from certain (or all characters). Much of the dialog has you in a dazed stupor trying to figure out what human being in any context would ever say that.

And the frustrating shit is that its not as hard as they make it out to be. They need character A or plot B to get from here to there. Anyone of us with 20 minutes in front of a computer screen can come up with a convincing way to do that without nearly as many holes.

And I haven't even gotten to the 110010% irrelevant storyline that was the Nikki/Monica/Micah shit this week. Bullies stole a backpack that had daddy's medal in it? Are you fucking kidding me?

There's no getting around it. This was an awful episode in a largely awful season.

[grozeng]

I see what you mean, but it was very similar last year. Peter and Hiro going around all the time saying Save the Cheerleader, Save the World. It's just that it was new and cool last year. This year people are frustrated that the writing and characters don't seem to be moving forward. But eveything you write above was there last year too.

And the Nikki/Micah/Monica thing is leading to the big finish next episode.

And I probably liked this episode more since Alejandro is now gone. I really do not like the whole wonder twins storyline.

But I did like the 30 year ago scenes and I liked the whole Elle and Claire interactions (probably because I know where that is going).

[EHK for Darwin]

C'mon, I think it fits. Adam, having been alive for 400 years, witnessed the invention of the nuclear bomb, a couple of world wars, malthus, and god knows what else.

Sure it could fit. But all we saw was a raving loon being led away whining about pollution and killing the natural habitat of the great horned owl. If that's his motivation, it should be built up on a steady foundation or at least with some persuasive, meaningful expository dialog. Not that one very lame scene. And its not like they didn't have time, Monica was fairly pointless this week. Edit and insert. They didn't sell the product (or even try to sell it) they simply said what it was and expected us to buy it.

HRG was going to shoot Bob and so Mohinder shot HRG to prevent him, the violent person, from committing murder. Fits with the character, IMO.

The only thing that fits within character is Mohinder being mind-numbingly stupid and naive once again. But we've covered in past discussions. The guy is a moron, a murderer, and everything he did led to that conclusion. Mohinder never tried 'another way', he simply betrayed and abandoned his friend and got in bed with the company. I hope he dies. Painfully.

Well, he didn't know that Peter could stop time until right then, did he? So he's thinking on the fly, and Hero's character pretty much never shows the amount of caution that he should, so it's consistent with the character, IMO.

I don't so much have a problem with Hiro charging, but Peter should be able to take him over his knee and spank the shit out of him while he orders pizza. Even if Peter is reluctant to kill a friend, the guy is telekinetic and claimed to 'remember everything'...if Sylar can stop bullets, surely Peter should be able to incapacitate Hiro for the moment.

[EHK for Darwin]

I see what you mean, but it was very similar last year. Peter and Hiro going around all the time saying Save the Cheerleader, Save the World. It's just that it was new and cool last year. This year people are frustrated that the writing and characters don't seem to be moving forward. But eveything you write above was there last year too.

It works when Hiro says it because its from the mouth of a naive geek who thinks he's living some comic book fantasy. And its half said for comic relief. You don't expect it from the mouths of more serious, 'living in the real world' characters.

As for the other shit, yeah last season had some of the problems. And I criticized some of the clunky dialog and weak storylines than. But it wasn't near as abundant or ever present as it is this season. And the plots didn't stagnate near as much. And most appeared to at least have some remote relation to the overall story.

[grozeng]

I don't so much have a problem with Hiro charging, but Peter should be able to take him over his knee and spank the shit out of him while he orders pizza. Even if Peter is reluctant to kill a friend, the guy is telekinetic and claimed to 'remember everything'...if Sylar can stop bullets, surely Peter should be able to incapacitate Hiro for the moment.

But then we wouldn't have the cool Hiro/Peter fight that everyone wants to see.

As for the other shit, yeah last season had some of the problems. And I criticized some of the clunky dialog and weak storylines than. But it wasn't near as abundant or ever present as it is this season. And the plots didn't stagnate near as much. And most appeared to at least have some remote relation to the overall story.

Well Nikki/DL/Micah really never had much to do with the overall story. And Peter was always saying Save the Cheerleader seriously like he is now saying Save the World. I agree the Wonder Twins are stagnating, but that seems to be picking up now a little. And this Micah plot is just as useless as his was last year. But the others are moving along fine. And supposedly we will continue to learn about the original 12 as the seasons go along.

[Guest Raidne]

The only thing that fits within character is Mohinder being mind-numbingly stupid and naive once again. But we've covered in past discussions. The guy is a moron, a murderer, and everything he did led to that conclusion. Mohinder never tried 'another way', he simply betrayed and abandoned his friend and got in bed with the company. I hope he dies. Painfully.

I get that it's really painful to watch Mohinder be such an ass, but his character is the perfect representation of a very moral but naive/stupid person. Mohinder always makes the moral decision based on the available information, it's just that he's a gullible ass and his premises are always wrong. He's been like that this whole season, and, more importantly, all of last season as well.

ETA: Maybe if they'd stop using him as the vaguely omniscient narrator, it would play a little better.

[Kelli Fury]

Bbbut he's not a very good actor and his character has been extremely uninteresting this season...and honestly only had a few very good moments last season.

but he was wet and shirtless, and that is all that matters

[Jaxom 1974]

Grozeng, I'd like to think its just perception and overanalyzing, but I seriously spent half the episode cringing and shaking my head, resisting the desperate urge to reach for the fast-forward button. Too much of the dialog was just painfully expository and simplistic. You have random characters tossing out lame platitudes about 'saving the world' every 5 minutes when only one of them has seen enough to actually use that phrase without sounding like a nutcase.

They want to move the character and the plot from point A to point D, but they either completely ignore the points in between or try to ram letters in there that just don't fit. The acting is sketchy. The characters inconsistent in motivation and reaction. Some of those motivations and reactions being downright unbelievable from certain (or all characters). Much of the dialog has you in a dazed stupor trying to figure out what human being in any context would ever say that.

And the frustrating shit is that its not as hard as they make it out to be. They need character A or plot B to get from here to there. Anyone of us with 20 minutes in front of a computer screen can come up with a convincing way to do that without nearly as many holes.

And I haven't even gotten to the 110010% irrelevant storyline that was the Nikki/Monica/Micah shit this week. Bullies stole a backpack that had daddy's medal in it? Are you fucking kidding me?

There's no getting around it. This was an awful episode in a largely awful season.

Okay, I've bolded some points specific to my comment.

Not that you're wrong, EHK, it is after all opinion and everyone's entitled to it (no matter what Os has ever told us otherwise) and I agree that there are some serious flaws with the season as a whole.

But there is/was so much potential. As we've careened into the (now) season finale, it became painfully obvious that the writers were trying to adjust and prepare for the coming strike. I watched last night and kept thinking to myself, "the last 2 episodes isn't enough time to get through all the groundwork they tried to lay out in the first two or three episodes. There's too much there." And that is why I think there's been so much suffering by the fan this year.

I think some of the apparent re-treads and seemingly slowness of the scripts of the first two or three episodes would have been rewarded with a full slate of shows to let all the part unfold. I think even the whole meaninglessness of the Maya/Alejandro arc would have somehow actually fit back into the main story. You know if the writers were expecting the strike to derail everything the way it did, we'd've had Hiro in Japan for only 3, maybe 4 episodes and things might have moved differently. Mohinder's turn towards the company might have been brought about in a less abrut manner. The photo of the Twelve wouldn't have been, essentially, abandoned. You could see the pace and tone change in the scripts, for better or worse, once they got through "4 Months Ago".

Be disappointed in a flawed season, but recognize that those flaws were never really given a chance to be explored or looked at to see if they were purposeful or not.

(All that being said, it still took too long to get rid of Alejandro, this season's Emo-Boy.)

[HokieStone]

Or a n00b getting pwned by making n00b mistakes. She actually got nervous and the "fight or flight" drive blew out some fuses temporarily.

Also, I think there's a difference between the theoretical knowledge of how to beat some one up, and the practical ability to put yourself into that mindset at will. It seems to me what happened highlights that. Only experience is going to get someone used to the idea of actually being violent.

Well, yes, I can see that, but I don't think fight or flight would lead someone to cram themselves in a nook in the ceiling. I think they try to make a run for the back door, or a window first.

[Ran]

re: Adam,

He's going to destroy the world because it's Hiro Nakamura's world, IMO. There's a reason that Hiro's father was the first to bite it.

[Trey Greyjoy]

Just to de-lurk for a minute....

I dont think the writer's strike had much to do with the awful plot progression or absurd plot devices of this season.

Tim Kring's apology to the fans in the Entertainment Weekly article didnt even mention the strike. In fact, the strike seems to serve as a good excuse for starting over with a clean slate. Had they continued down the path they were on, they wouldnt have had many viewers left by the end of a full season.

As it stands, its about 50/50 with me as to whether or not Ill look for Heroes when it returns. Sad too, it started out as such an amazing show.

[Jaxom 1974]

Just to de-lurk for a minute....

I dont think the writer's strike had much to do with the awful plot progression or absurd plot devices of this season.

Tim Kring's apology to the fans in the Entertainment Weekly article didnt even mention the strike. In fact, the strike seems to serve as a good excuse for starting over with a clean slate. Had they continued down the path they were on, they wouldnt have had many viewers left by the end of a full season.

Fair enough. But I disagree.

[AverageGuy]

I agree with Ran on this one. Also, I think it's much harder to understand a language than it is to speak it. It wasn't until the end of my second year of college French that I could actually understand anything that anyone was saying in normal conversation, but I passed a number of oral exams by that point. Language classes seem to take that into account, as they don't formally test and grade your ability to understand for quite a while. And reading a foreign language is the easiest of all, IMO.

I somewhat disagree here.

Alejandro speaking English to Sylar was the only time I really came out of the episode. I accepted his reading English because I immediately thought of online translators - I ignored the fact the article was still in English. However, Alejandro has shown no knowledge of English at all in previous episodes. So speaking it was a problem. And he used a contraction. Even if Alejandro plugged, "No esta/s tomando mi hermana" into a translator just for Sylar, he shouldn't have gotten that.

It's a geeky complaint, though

[Slurktan]

But then we wouldn't have the cool Hiro/Peter fight that everyone wants to see.

I'll be blunt. You mean cool like Hiro stops time, Peter punches him in the face and the fight is over? Who actually wants to see this fight? Hiro can and would be able to do absolutely nothing. I'd rather watch Peter fight a mirror, at least it might somehow reflect some lightning back at him or something.

[14th Dragon]

I'll be blunt. You mean cool like Hiro stops time, Peter punches him in the face and the fight is over? Who actually wants to see this fight? Hiro can and would be able to do absolutely nothing. I'd rather watch Peter fight a mirror, at least it might somehow reflect some lightning back at him or something.

That is the problem with all of Peters fights, he never quite picks the right power to use, or is really overly swift in his use of it.

He should have read Adam's mind from point one to figure out what is going on, but never quite thinks of that. INstead of making himself and Adam invisible in going into Primatech Paper, they go in fully visible.

Besides if Hiro uses his teleportation ability right he might be able to get in a good shot at Peter. The fact that Peter should be able to take him easy is kinda moot given his difficulty in actually doing anything.

[grozeng]

I'll be blunt. You mean cool like Hiro stops time, Peter punches him in the face and the fight is over? Who actually wants to see this fight? Hiro can and would be able to do absolutely nothing. I'd rather watch Peter fight a mirror, at least it might somehow reflect some lightning back at him or something.

Well there is the whole Peter not really wanting to hurt people but Hiro wanting to get through Peter to get to Adam angle. And we do get the scene with Hiro having the sword to Peter's throat. So it probably won't be that good, but I am glad the 2 most powerful Heroes are going to have a fight here. I guess I should not have said probably though based on the Sylar/Peter fight.

[EHK for Darwin]

Well there is the whole Peter not really wanting to hurt people but Hiro wanting to get through Peter to get to Adam angle.

Peter is telekinetic. For Sylar that means stopping bullets, throwing bodies, and slicing heads open. For the less experienced Peter who claims to 'remember everything', that should at least mean swatting aside a little twerp with a sharpened stick...if he intended to go the 'no hurting/killing' route.

but I am glad the 2 most powerful Heroes are going to have a fight here.

Again, why? Hiro has no useful combat abilities against Peter. Its not a matchup. Its the Kurgan facing off against a one-legged infant.

[Winterfella]

I don't begrudge anyone their opinions on this show, because I think there are kernels of ideas that could have been developed into something interesting, but after seeing last night's episode, I'll watch the finale and then I'm done.

I think EHK is right on the money, and maybe too nice, with all of his criticism, especially with points like Adam's motivation. Yes, I could buy it if they showed him suffering emotional losses over the years due to human stupidity, maybe show him losing a son in the civil war or something. Actually give it some foundation. But there was nothing. Just one sentence of excited dialogue as explanation and we're supposed to say "oh, wow, that's deep".

I was giggling when Claire dumped her father's ashes because the scene was so stupid. And hey, I thought the last couple episodes signaled an upswing too, but I could make a mile long stupid list for this episode. The Monica/Micah subplot alone dropped my IQ by 30 points (Excuse me while I hide behind this light pole that's thinner than I am. Wtf, put some shrubbery there that he can dive behind. And taking her by surprise so she wouldn't have time to fight would have been much better than the pointless exercise of her clinging to the ceiling for no reason, not to mention the laughable images of her comically terrified face as they dragged her out of the house). It just makes me angry how laughably bad the whole thing has become.

I also agree that we have no evidence to suggest that the strike played any part in disrupting the story that was already in place. It just acts as more of a mercy killing for the second season.

Oh, and I see a big difference between the 1st and 2nd seasons. The first season took characters I didn't know, and got me interested in their story. The second season has taken characters I do know, and were interested in, and shot that all to hell, to the point that I have no plans to watch after next week's "finale".

[Jaxom 1974]

I also agree that we have no evidence to suggest that the strike played any part in disrupting the story that was already in place. It just acts as more of a mercy killing for the second season.

How can anyone not think the strike had an effect on this season? It went from being 20+ episodes (supposedly across two or three arcs) to just 12 episodes. Story lines have obviously been truncated and switched about and hurried.

I won't comment on bad acting, because that's frankly gonna happen (looking at you Mr. West). But to think that a full slate of episodes wouldn't have helped get the writers into a better stride is dumb.

There are flaws, I'm not arguing that there aren't. I'm suggesting some of those flaws would have been non-existant or worked themselves out over the course of 20+ episodes.