Heroes

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Wow. I still can't believe how many plotholes there are.

That's my point, these writers are horrible. They don't put themselves into the position of these characters and think "what would I do in that circumstance", they invent plot lines and try to shoehorn their characters into following along.

Which is why these characters only use their powers when it suits the plot.

[AverageGuy]

why did Peter survive the bomb? (Adam surviving the explosion at White Beard's camp has already been mentioned).

That one at least is easy. He didn't explode himself, he just projected the energy. Just like Elle shooting lightning without electrocuting herself (unless she's wet) or Ted shooting out radiation without giving himself cancer.

And again, a lot of the Adam plotholes (not taking his blood, leaving him with Peter, leaving him his head, why his disciple Linderman would leave him locked up, why people willing to let a bomb go off would worry about a virus getting loose for the same purposes) would make sense if he was working with Bob and the Company. If they managed to reconcile that with his desire to kill all the founders, it would solve a lot of issues.

[Jaxom 1974]

would make sense if he was working with Bob and the Company.

If he is, then this is something that might have been revealed in a much easier to follow story if there'd been a full season.

His being in lock-up could still have been a set-up for Peter. Could have.

[Werthead]

The entire Monica storyline is about her being abducted by gangsters? If that's the case why bother with her at all. She's has no connection with the central plot, what a big waste of time.

Apparently:

SPOILER: Major Heroes Spoiler

Nikki gets killed whilst rescuing Monica. So that explains the relevance of her arc. OTOH, given that no-one seems to particularly like Nikki, I'm not sure if that many people will care.

[A Time for Wolves]

Apparently:

SPOILER: Major Heroes Spoiler

Nikki gets killed whilst rescuing Monica. So that explains the relevance of her arc. OTOH, given that no-one seems to particularly like Nikki, I'm not sure if that many people will care.

Yeah, I predicted this. But I actually like that character very much.

SPOILER: Major Heroes Spoiler Contd

I think it's a shame to kill Nikki when her whole storyline has been about a very interesting internal conflict between Nikki and Jessica. Nikki is one of the few characters who haven't gone completely stupid and OOC - in fact, she's remained remarkably consistent. And I just feel that she has too much personality to just be killed off, when characters like Peter, Claire, Adam and Mohinder are so bland and flat in comparison. Nikki and Matt Parkman are the only characters who have real development going for them. And I like the way they fight their inner demons.

[Xerxes]

Apparently:

SPOILER: Major Heroes Spoiler

Nikki gets killed whilst rescuing Monica. So that explains the relevance of her arc. OTOH, given that no-one seems to particularly like Nikki, I'm not sure if that many people will care.

I'll watch just for that spoiler

[Week]

SPOILER: Meh, not really spoiler..but a response to what was in spoiler text...

I don't know, I was pretty annoyed when Nikki randomly had another personality (with the possibility setup about 5 minutes earlier) that had no point other than giving DL a throw away death.

[Ran]

I could swear I've articulated the theory that Adam and Bob are in the same camp.

That said, having seen some preview clips for the episode, I'm not sure if it works. Namely:

SPOILER: Heroes final episode (for now)

Now we know why Peter in particular is needed. The virus is at the paper company headquarters, behind a maaaasssssive vault door. Obviously, Peter's needed to phase through or maybe tear it off its hinges with his telekinesis (I'm guessing the latter), since Adam can't do this himself....

... but why need Peter for that? If Bob is running the show, surely he could just open it when he pleases?

Unless.... the company has actually split, and Bob's been running around like he runs the whole show, but in fact he controls just one faction, and there's an opposed faction which retains control of Primatech and the virus. Hence this whole thing to lure Peter into working with Adam, I guess.

[A Time for Wolves]

^ I like Ran's theory on...

SPOILER: What Brienne Likes About Ran's Theory

...how Bob might be acting like he's running the show but in fact only runs one faction. Who would be in the opposed faction, though? Who of the original 12 is still alive? Just Angela. And we don't even know what her power is yet. A conflict of Bob and Adam vs Angela Petrelli, with the younger Heroes taking sides, would be a much more interesting fight than a linear "OMG RACE FOR THE VIRUS!" plot.

[Ran]

Hrm...

SPOILER: Last episode

That's an interesting point, Brienne. I never really thought it through. A columnist at, I think, Entertainment Weekly or some place said she was on the set for the filming of the last episode. Among various spoiler hints, she offered the fact that Ma Petrelli may be in the running for worst mother in the history of motherhood, or something to that effect.

If it turns out that she's just been using her children as pawns in a game to flush out her opponents in a struggle to control the Company, with stakes that include killing off most of the world population, this judgment would make sense.

[A Time for Wolves]

SPOILER: The Last Episode

Ooh, nice tidbit. I wouldn't put that past Angela - we really know nothing of her powers or desires or her past. But if that theory is true, it would make for a much more interesting conflict, IMO.

[Jerol]

I love all the complicated conspiracies and probable plot twists that people post on here but I have no faith in the writers of this show to deliver anything of the sort.

[Ran]

Pondering this further:

SPOILER: Adam

So we see Adam and Peter make their escape from the Company. Eventually Elle and the Haitan track them down ... and we see Adam get zapped by Elle, apparently out of the fight.

Yet, he's never captured. His apparent escape from that predicament is never explained. And the Haitian blithely goes and mind-wipes Peter, sending him off.

What odds that that bit of show with Adam was done on purpose to further convince Peter of the need to work with him against "the Company"? And the only hitch is that the Haitian seems to be a double-agent, with his real loyalty being to Angela.

Was the mind-wipe done at Angela's behest to try and safely put Peter out of the way of Bob's and Adam's plans? Which makes things slightly better, re: Angela as a mother, but not all that much better.

[aeu]

Honestly, if they go towards that route (with problems and all), that would go a long way towards restoring my faith in this show.

eta: Though I understand Dagger's pessimism. Remember how West and Claire met? There was speculation about West being a company implant, since the way it happened (guy almost runs the invincible girl over...turns out they are actually classmates...turns out they sit next to each other..turns out the guy can fly...turns out girl's father had once abducted him) made no sense whatsoever. But apparently, it is what it is.

[Jaxom 1974]

Pondering this further:

SPOILER: Adam

So we see Adam and Peter make their escape from the Company. Eventually Elle and the Haitan track them down ... and we see Adam get zapped by Elle, apparently out of the fight.

Yet, he's never captured. His apparent escape from that predicament is never explained. And the Haitian blithely goes and mind-wipes Peter, sending him off.

What odds that that bit of show with Adam was done on purpose to further convince Peter of the need to work with him against "the Company"? And the only hitch is that the Haitian seems to be a double-agent, with his real loyalty being to Angela.

Was the mind-wipe done at Angela's behest to try and safely put Peter out of the way of Bob's and Adam's plans? Which makes things slightly better, re: Angela as a mother, but not all that much better.

I thought I'd theorized something like this at one point. Or was it groz? Either way, it would work for me.

[Ran]

Great minds and all. I think it's starting to come together in a way that explains quite a lot of the hanging threads...

But as you guys are indicating, it could just be wishful thinking.

[A Time for Wolves]

Pondering this further:

SPOILER: Adam

So we see Adam and Peter make their escape from the Company. Eventually Elle and the Haitan track them down ... and we see Adam get zapped by Elle, apparently out of the fight.

Yet, he's never captured. His apparent escape from that predicament is never explained. And the Haitian blithely goes and mind-wipes Peter, sending him off.

What odds that that bit of show with Adam was done on purpose to further convince Peter of the need to work with him against "the Company"? And the only hitch is that the Haitian seems to be a double-agent, with his real loyalty being to Angela.

Was the mind-wipe done at Angela's behest to try and safely put Peter out of the way of Bob's and Adam's plans? Which makes things slightly better, re: Angela as a mother, but not all that much better.

That is completely gorgeous and would win back all my old Heroes love. And it would probably throw the murders into a different light (Kaito, etc). But I can't see the writers pulling off something that clever.

[EHK for Darwin]

All of this speculation is interesting, but I'm gonna go with the tried and true stance of 'shit writing' to explain away every real and potential inconsistency. Fact is who was on what side and when is such a muddled, convoluted question now that they could spend an entire season trying to explain it and still not sort the shit out.

The Haitian has been on just about every side at least once...some of them twice, and noone seems to make the obvious observation that 'hey, weren't you fighting against us an episode ago?'. Maury makes even less sense. And we really have no idea how, if at all, Linderman fits in with Adam or the other potential factions.

Than there's little things like the cosmic fucking coincidence of West and Claire meeting, Sylar in the middle of the road, the 100,000,000% irrelevant Monica plotline.

Bah...this show really deserves to die at this point. And instead, they'll probably kill off the MUCH better Journeyman. (which is off this monday for whatever reason. They're trying a new episode of Life instead. Journeyman is scheduled to return next week though)

[AverageGuy]

Pondering this further:

SPOILER: Adam

What odds that that bit of show with Adam was done on purpose to further convince Peter of the need to work with him against "the Company"? And the only hitch is that the Haitian seems to be a double-agent, with his real loyalty being to Angela.

Great minds. Back on page four I said the Haitian wiped Peter's mind to stop Bob and Adam's plot, thinking the same thing. I originally noticed a problem when Bob said, within five minutes, that Linderman had been Adam's disciple, that Bob was trying to clean the Company up from the mess Linderman made of it, and that the Company had imprisoned Adam. I couldn't reconcile those three facts: that Linderman definitely ran the Company, that he was Adam's disciple, and that he imprisoned Adam. So I assumed Adam hadn't been imprisoned, that Bob was lying, and that Adam and Bob were working together. I also thought that Maury was working against them, though, and that's hard to work into the theory. Maury has pieces of that Company picture in his apartment, Nakamura got one, and we know Adam took out Nakamura himself. This evidence suggests that Maury was working with Adam. If Maury is working with Adam and Adam is working with Bob, Maury shouldn't be targeting Bob. Plus, Adam shouldn't need to find Victoria Pratt to find the virus if Bob already knows where it is.

My overly complex solution:

Angela Petrelli is the mad genius.

Members of the Company who no longer believe in creating a tragic event to unite humanity are being targeted by those who do, the Adam/Linderman bloc. To this end, they have been systematically eliminated. It started when Mama Petrelli killed Papa Petrelli (using her theoretical touch-persuasion-power to make him commit suicide) to prevent him from warning Peter and Nathan, the two central participants, about the "Bomb NY" plan. Deveaux was already dying, no one was worried about him.

More recently, Kaito Nakamura aided Hiro in his attempts to stop the bomb and said he was trying to make up for the evil the Company did. Mama Petrelli hadn't actually gotten the black spot - she made her own and went to Nakamura to see his reaction; Kaito told Angela enough to verify his status as a threat. He also said he was leaving for Japan that night. Adam took him out a few hours later.

Maury Parkman learned of Nakamura's death, guessed who was behind it (maybe he read Angela's mind and knew), and actively started trying to stop the A/L bloc. He began by attacking Angela Petrelli's mind. So Mama Petrelli confessed and put Matt on his trail. She also made a call so that Bob & Co. could plant evidence in Maury's apartment (no reason the Company can't know where Maury is). Maury put Molly into a coma because he assumed it was the Company after him (and hey, a few months earlier, he would have been right).

We know the rest: Maury runs while saying Matt doesn't know all the facts. He attacks Bob, another ally of Angela's. Matt, ignorant, stops him. After this, Angela manipulates Matt into finding Victoria Pratt, one of the few people with the knowledge and desire to oppose the new plan to use the virus. However, she already told Adam where Victoria is.

At the same time, Adam manipulated Peter not to find the virus but to get his help in taking out Pratt (and later, maybe, to help spread and possibly control the virus). Thus, Matt will find Victoria just after her murder. Plus, Matt will have enough evidence to clear Mama Petrelli's name, even though she really is behind the murders.

One problem: The assumption is that the Haitian wiped Peter's mind to help stop the plan, but while he did it he said that he was helping Peter because Peter's mother helped him. If he's so loyal to Angela Petrelli, you'd think he'd help her. One explanation is that he doesn't know her part in this, and a second is that he satisfies his honor by helping her offspring when she's doing something evil. A third explanation is that he rationalizes it by telling himself he's keeping her from sinning, his religious zeal assuaging his conscience because he's keeping Angela from damning herself to hell. Or some combination of the three.

There are probably plenty of other holes in this theory. Poke away

ETA: And yes, Dagger, EHK, shit writing is probably the real answer.

But I still think this theory solves a lot of the holes I saw. I mean, for starters, Adam has a lot of information for someone who's been in prison for thirty years. It doesn't deal with the sideplots like the twins, Micah's family, Sylar, or Claire/West, but those really could be extraordinary coincidences without being plot holes.

[grozeng]

I thought I'd theorized something like this at one point. Or was it groz? Either way, it would work for me.

Wasn't me. And it doesn't happen.

From what I have read there is nothing to indicate Bob and Adam are working together.

SPOILER: last episode

Elle isn't going to be in Odessa. She is in NY with Suresh and Sylar. Angela is a horrible mother because she tells Parkman how to kill Peter (should have happened last episode before the writers strike. And it is possible Bob and Adam are working together, but everything I have seen does not suggest that they are in any way. From what I have read about the last episode, I think I am going to be happy with it (and people that have been upset with the story so far are probably not). It does seem like too much is going to happen though for 1 hour. We have the Peter/Hiro fight, the Micah/Nikki rescuing Monica part, and Suresh meeting with Sylar. It seems like a lot to happen in 1 hour. I feel we are going to have too much Nikki (with her dying and all) and not enough of the other parts (which is why I think people who have not liked this season are not going to be happy