R+L = J v 64

[Fire Eater]

One thing that I just can't seem to shake is Jon being armored "in black ice", which makes me immediately think of Rhaegar's black plate.

Along with Sansa recalling that men of the NW are called black knights in songs, and then thinks of Jon as he took the black. The only black knight we had heard of until then was Rhaegar.

[corbon]

Actually, it is the right conclusion, even if based on false premises. Because for Lyanna to die of puerperal fever (or do you think that's not true either?), she must have given birth one to two weeks before Ned turned up.

Not quite. Up to 10 days or so before he turned up, and he must have take at least a couple of weeks if not longer, to get there from KL, via Storms End and accepting the surrender of Mace Tyrell etc.

[The guy from the Vale]

Not quite. Up to 10 days or so before he turned up, and he must have take at least a couple of weeks if not longer, to get there from KL, via Storms End and accepting the surrender of Mace Tyrell etc.

So we agree that Lyanna gave birth to Jon a few days, probably a week or so, before Ned appeared? Because that's all I was arguing.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Hug it out, that's it. :grouphug:

[MtnLion]

Not quite. Up to 10 days or so before he turned up, and he must have take at least a couple of weeks if not longer, to get there from KL, via Storms End and accepting the surrender of Mace Tyrell etc.

And, at least five days before Ned arrived, in order for her death to be due to "the fever" that took her. I won't bet on travel times, but Ned could have gotten from King's Landing to Storm's End in less than a week. It is also possible that his small mounted group got from Storm's End to the tower in less than a week. It is in GRRM's hands . . .

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

One thing that I just can't seem to shake is Jon being armored "in black ice", which makes me immediately think of Rhaegar's black plate.

That, and there's also the possibility that the "black ice" is really obsidian. Frozen fire, ice and fire. Jon's "armored" in what he actually is. It's also interesting that obsidian is also the only thing that we know can destroy Others; it might be a clue that Jon's the one who's ultimately meant to destroy them too.

[thewingedwolf]

That, and there's also the possibility that the "black ice" is really obsidian. Frozen fire, ice and fire.

This is interesting when making a parallel into a few different factors which I think are important to outline. I will first begin with a quote from GRRM himself regarding the difference between Obsidian in our world and in the world of Ice and Fire:

“(Obsidian has) Magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.

We know form this, that there are differences between "real" obsidian and ASOIAF" obisidian but one thing that is similar is the way it is formed which is "frozen fire" or in the case of our world, a chemical reaction that essentially freezes lava. Now we know that there are no volcanoes in Westeros but rather th Maesters believe that obsidian is made from the "fires of the earth" (which is arguably where the children of the forest got it from to make all the daggers they gave the NW during the age of heroes).

One in westeros where we know that are hot springs and certainly "Fires of the earth" is Winterfell as the hot springs on top of which it is built is what allows to "heat the walls".

By that time you may all be wondering where I am going with this. Just like Obsidian is made from the "fires of the earth" Jon's character (at least early in his life) was shaped at Winterfell (a place very much connected with the fires of the earth). Therefore Jon being armored in "black ice" or, as you accurately pointed out, obsidian could be a symbol of Jon getting closer and closer to figuring out his true lineage of ice and fire.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree obsidian is ice and fire. And I think this dream Jon had is one of the prophetic dreams Valyrians have, just like we have been seeing for Dany.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I agree obsidian is ice and fire. And I think this dream Jon had is one of the prophetic dreams Valyrians have, just like we have been seeing for Dany.

Or he's just having a prophetic dream that Starks have like we've seen with Bran and Rickon.

[Arya kiddin']

Jon is now armored in ice and fire - Tyrion says armor yourself in truth, your identity, and then they can't hurt you with that, during his first interaction with Jon at the feast at Winterfell. Jon armored in ice and fire is him embracing his identity now, so I believe we can get the scenario of "us readers knowing his true lineage but not Jon himself" off the table.

Jon's "armored" in what he actually is. It's also interesting that obsidian is also the only thing that we know can destroy Others; it might be a clue that Jon's the one who's ultimately meant to destroy them too.

Agreed, that's another good interpretation.

[FrozenFire3]

That, and there's also the possibility that the "black ice" is really obsidian. Frozen fire, ice and fire. Jon's "armored" in what he actually is. It's also interesting that obsidian is also the only thing that we know can destroy Others; it might be a clue that Jon's the one who's ultimately meant to destroy them too.

Absolutely. A bit of textual support:

"Dragonglass. The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as dragonglass blade.

Dragonglass = frozen fire. Frozen fire is inside him. Ergo, his very core is a sharp synthesis of ice and fire: no better description for the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's noticeable how, in most of his dreams/musings, guilt keeps on stalking his inner 'hungry' search of self...

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Loving the idea that the black ice is obsidian. I never liked the image of Jon clad in actual ice. It felt wrong to me, it never sat well with my feelings about his role in the tale.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why would he be wearing it? Will the Ice swords of the Others not get through it? Is it to e.g. camouflage a hot body? ( :lol: ) I mean, was it somewhere said the Others are attracted to warm blood? If he does go into an ice cell, who knows, he might not wake up from it being warm-blooded any more. :dunno:

[Ser Creighton]

I agree obsidian is ice and fire. And I think this dream Jon had is one of the prophetic dreams Valyrians have, just like we have been seeing for Dany.

It's not Valyrians, it was the Targayens who had prophetic blood in the family. There are others who have this gift as well, and apparently some inanimate objects, glass candles. Not trying to nit pick your comment, just handing down a little extra information.

[Ser Creighton]

Loving the idea that the black ice is obsidian. I never liked the image of Jon clad in actual ice. It felt wrong to me, it never sat well with my feelings about his role in the tale.

My first thought was it was obsidian, my second was my god that has to be heavy, how does he move in that. It's a thick suit of rock. Maybe the intention is to put Jon in a catapult and shoot him at the enemy. It's the westeros version of a smart bomb.

[Ser Creighton]

Just a side thought on Jon and ice fire. Not really sure if this has been covered to death like most topics, but aside from Jon's parentage, Jon has been placed in a rather unique position to drink from the cup of ice and drink from the cup of fire.

If Jon is does die, death being he stops breathing for a moment or two and given his proximity to both the Weights and Mel Martin may take that theme a step further with Jon both being raised by the others and Mel. Lets say he is going all blue eyed and he gets kissed by Mel. Well what does he become? A blue eyed fire guy zombie, do they cancel out and he is just left alive and healed? I can't imagine the thought has not crossed Martins mind plus it adds a unique nature to his resurrection and a plot twist, what if Azor was the same way both fire and ice and the fire gods worshipers got it wrong.

Azor went on a trip north of the wall to ask the children how to defeat the Others. Maybe he had problems getting back and maybe Nissa was a fire priestess and kissed ice zombie Azor. Who knows? But it could be possible that Martin plays with the idea.

[Old-Growth]

"Just a side thought on Jon and ice fire. Not really sure if this has been covered to death like most topics, but aside from Jon's parentage, Jon has been placed in a rather unique position to drink from the cup of ice and drink from the cup of fire."

So, yet another shot at the hated Daenerys, is that it Ser Creighton? Steal the admonition to Dany from the Undying and hand it off to Jon. Because anything that appears to be about Dany vis-a-vis AAR must somehow really be about Jon, no matter how much you must twist and distort the text in order to make it appear so.

[Black Crow]

There is a practical problem with armour made of ice.

If it is actually frozen fire/dragonglass then it shatters very easily as Sam discovered when he tried to stab Small Paul (deceased). Its not very practical.

On the other hand if it is Ice then GRRM has said Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

Going back to dragonglass, GRRM also said this in the same interview:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

[Alia of the knife]

There is a practical problem with armour made of ice.

If it is actually frozen fire/dragonglass then it shatters very easily as Sam discovered when he tried to stab Small Paul (deceased). Its not very practical.

On the other hand if it is Ice then GRRM has said Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.

Going back to dragonglass, GRRM also said this in the same interview:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

There are a lot of legends, and you'll be hearing more about them in the future books, but a lot of stuff about Others and about dragons maybe isn't completely understood by the people of the present. Obsidian is of course volcanic glass; it's formed by immense heat and pressure down in the earth. The dragons themselves are creatures of intense heat.

I can't remember, but are the current Starks directly descended from the Night King and his Other "wife," of indirectly?

Was there actual offspring from that union?

[Black Crow]

The Nights King gave the White Lady his seed, which implies there were offspring. However the Nights King was then overthrown by his brother, the Stark of Winterfell. The current generation of Starks are descended from the Winterfell side, albeit through the female side after the intervention of Bael the Bard/Tam Lin to ensure that there is always a Stark in Winterfell.