True Detective V

[TheKitttenGuard]

Lol - before tonight's episode I would have said that Cohle is not the better target but [as] he'd be sexually incorruptible... but fail.

However to the bold, in my mind, no. Beth seducing Marty is actually the crux in events that leads Marty to not support Cohle [and, thus, gets Cohle suspended].

Maggie was always Cohle's Kryptonite.

[Maithanet]

And why are all these young hot women interested in middle-aged Marty? I don't get it.

Seriously. And was anyone else thinking about STDs in this scene? I know I was.

I don't think it's lazy storytelling at all. Nothing about this show feels lazy. I think it was a conscious choice to focus on the two male lead characters and how everyone reacts to them or shapes them. Just not seeing where they'd fit in this strong, fleshed out, modern female character in a show about two differently tortured male detectives investigating a potential cult of rapists and murderers of women.

Strong or modern, no. I don't think that asking for one fleshed out female character is too much to ask for an entire season of a well made show, unless something particular to the setting demands it.

Lol - before tonight's episode I would have said that Cohle is not the better target but [as] he'd be sexually incorruptible... but fail.

I think it is more that Cohle was always attracted to Maggie, which you can see in the first scene they are together. I assume that is why Cohle always entertained Maggie's attempts at setting him up with someone, becuase he didn't want to shut her out of his life.

When other women have tried to get with Cohle, he always shuts them down.

[aceluby]

I feel the characterization of the women characters helps drive the feeling of the story which centers around vicimized women. Prostitutes, women tortured and killed, girls being abused, women being lied to, women being cheated on, women used as objects...

Couple that with the fact that only Cohle and Hart are truly 'fleshed out' and I don't see how anyone can genuinely make the complaint.

[Mexal]

I feel the characterization of the women characters helps drive the feeling of the story which centers around vicimized women. Prostitutes, women tortured and killed, girls being abused, women being lied to, women being cheated on, women used as objects...

Couple that with the fact that only Cohle and Hart are truly 'fleshed out' and I don't see how anyone can genuinely make the complaint.

:agree:

Though I can see why people would make the complaint. Pretty standard actually.

[kairparavel]

I agree as well.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

"It's not a flaw, it's a feature!"

I wonder if Ron Marz ever consciously thought to himself that he was trying create the feeling of a story where women didn't matter and were killed and stuffed into refrigerators as a matter of artistic integrity.

[The Monkey]

It's just unfortunate to have a show with two really strong, fleshed out male characters, and then all the women are reduced to victims and sex objects; it's lazy storytelling. However, I don't really agree with the Slate criticism, I think that Maggie is a pretty well developed character.

There isn't a single fleshed-out character on this show, except for Marty and Rust. That goes for the male supporting cast as well (like the two cops interrogating people in 2012, who have had a lot of screen time, but about whom we know nearly nothing about). So it's not just the female characters who gets the short stick.

That being said, I would love to have a female character of Mart or Rust's complexity in a leading role on television, and I'm hoping that the future seasons of True Detective will provide just that.

[Madness]

As I said, I've no care to debate this here. I may write up something more extensive at Second Apocalypse as I do care about analyzing the show[, though].

The standard that's been suggested to me in Literature subforum is that, in this age of fiction, you are either consciously working to subvert the tropes or you are complicit.

I'm hoping NP is going to [for] subversion but I won't hold my breathe.

[red snow]

I guess the Bakker comparisons run even deeper. Guess it was only a matter of time before we started discussing the shows depiction of women.

I tend to agree that the focus is solely on the two main characters. No-one else has really had the chance to shine or maybe the show has deliberately made them pale in comparison. I thought we'd maybe get more insight into Maggie as she was being interviewed and I think in some ways she did get a lot more development this episode in the sense she took control of her situation and left Hart.

Others have probably mentioned it already and I missed it but it seems people are being highly selective on the victims list when it was a boy who died during the rescue. This implies there may be other young men among the disappeared.

I think what's odd so far is that it seems like the cult is more of a sex-ring than a murderous one. I'm starting to wonder if the staged murder is actually a really messed up plea for help? Could it be that someone staged the abused victim's murder in such a way as to draw attention to the cult and stop the abuse? If that's the case the murderer may not be the scarred man at all. It also calls in to question whether the present day killing is exactly as it seems.

[red snow]

That being said, I would love to have a female character of Mart or Rust's complexity in a leading role on television, and I'm hoping that the future seasons of True Detective will provide just that.

Ah, but then he may just be pandering to criticism! I strongly suspect the next season will feature at least one female detective and that should hopefully set things straight in the sense the show focuses on the detectives and not the victims/perpetrators. I'm pretty sure NP can do a good job with either gender. I've no idea what the gender ratio was for detectives in 1995 (or in the present for that matter) but in terms of the police it may fit that the workplace is male dominated.

in terms of female characters of similar depth, I'd urge you to check out BBC's "the fall". While not in the same league as true detective, Gillian Anderson plays a very interesting role as a specialist trying to track down a serial killer. Without having to be some kind of savant or socially disabled.

[Kalbear]

I think one big reason that this show's poor depiction of women (and for my money it is absolutely poor) isn't discussed as much is that there's very little place to argue it. The creator of the show hasn't said that they were trying to make a feminist story. The critics have largely panned it for this (though have otherwise praised it). Very few people - at least until this ep - have attempted to justify it.

So there's very little to discuss when everyone's on board.

Also, Alexandra Daddario's breasts are fantastic. That tends to diffuse criticism to some degree.

That being said, let's go to this one:

I feel the characterization of the women characters helps drive the feeling of the story which centers around vicimized women. Prostitutes, women tortured and killed, girls being abused, women being lied to, women being cheated on, women used as objects...

Couple that with the fact that only Cohle and Hart are truly 'fleshed out' and I don't see how anyone can genuinely make the complaint.

If that's the case, why are we seeing Marty's conquests in such porn-like detail? Marty is the one who bangs the absurdly hot Daddario despite being almost 40, balding and not particularly attractive. 7 years later he's banging another absurdly hot gal who wants him to fuck her in the ass. Why on earth? That doesn't make them victims - though it does objectify them, it doesn't make them being used. In both cases we're seeing the women practically begging the guy (or actively doing so) to use them. It'd be one thing if we saw Marty trying to come on to them over and over and make drunken, sad advances. But in both cases where we have a sex scene the woman is the aggressive actor. And both are filmed to give about as much titillation as possible.

This doesn't add to the victimization; if they wanted to do that, make Marty the aggressor. Show him doing what Rust said he could do - abuse his power as a cop. Show that every man is a bad man. But no - instead we get women practically falling over to fuck Marty. That's not victimization - that's fantasy.

If you want to show that Marty is fucking around, there are plenty of ways to do that while averting the male gaze. The best charitable thing I can say about this ep is that maybe they wanted to show that despite Marty trying to be good, it's very hard when a 20something beautiful woman that you already rescued throws herself at you, and they wanted to give some sympathy to Marty's "plight" here. But meh.

So yeah, no one outside of Marty and Rust is particularly well-characterized; it's a deep study for them, and everyone else acts as a way to reflect on them. At the same time the rest of the men in the cast aren't showing their chiseled asses, or walking around bare-shirted constantly. We're not showing how hot they look as they bang away; we're showing how hot the women look as they are barely in the frame. That, hopefully, shouldn't be particularly objectionable to anyone.

When madness said the powers that be I wasn't thinking he was talking about the Cult - I thought he was talking about HBO execs and their oft-mentioned desire for more porniness on their shows.

My opinion on this show hasn't really changed since the first ep. It's one of the finest if not the finest detective fiction I've ever seen, but it is not particularly original nor does it subvert anything. It is the highest of its craft. But it also shows the same holes that the genre has, and doesn't do anything to modify them.

[Kalbear]

Also, from the Atlantic article trisk linked earlier:

And related: Is it just a coincidence that an early nickname for the Segway prototype was “Ginger”?

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Sci-2]

Good analysis Kal - I think Lisa's relationship with Marty was a bit more plausible. She was hoping he would leave his wife and be with her. And Marty was much younger then.

In general I'd be weary wary of trying to parallel discussion of True Detective with discussions of Bakker. I think both the Lovecraftian Weird and Noir are genres that have issues with women for separate reasons.

It's disappointing but not altogether surprising that True Detective finds itself where it does on gender. That said I do think Maggie is a much more sympathetic & character interesting character than some of the more critical reviews claim.

@Madness

Ah, I can see that. I hope there's some reason Beth was so dedicated about getting Marty to "fuck her in the ass" as right now it stands out as being odd.

But then the show has tended to slip deliberately into the pornographic as there's also the threesome Audrey was involved in. Meant to be a shameful act though we all know if Marty had a son caught in that situation the kid would be his pride & joy.

[The Monkey]

in terms of female characters of similar depth, I'd urge you to check out BBC's "the fall". While not in the same league as true detective, Gillian Anderson plays a very interesting role as a specialist trying to track down a serial killer. Without having to be some kind of savant or socially disabled.

Thanks for the recommendation, I love me some Scully.

[Francis Buck]

Having read Galveston (the novel by the creator/writer of NP), which featured what I thought was a very well-done and realistic female lead, I do tend to lean towards the lack of developed female characters as being semi-intentional, or at least a symptom of the fact that there aren't really any fleshed out characters aside from Rust and Hart.

Also, NP responded to the comments.

[Mark Antony]

Having read Galveston (the novel by the creator/writer of NP), which featured what I thought was a very well-done and realistic female lead, I do tend to lean towards the lack of developed female characters as being semi-intentional, or at least a symptom of the fact that there aren't really any fleshed out characters aside from Rust and Hart.

Also, NP responded to the comments.

Was literally just about to post that tweet. Clearly intentional by Nic P and also can't wait for next season already lol

[Jaxom 1974]

I think Maggie did more than flash her breasts, but I did find the "fuck me in the ass" ex-hooker to be a bit ridiculous.

If that's the case, why are we seeing Marty's conquests in such porn-like detail? Marty is the one who bangs the absurdly hot Daddario despite being almost 40, balding and not particularly attractive. 7 years later he's banging another absurdly hot gal who wants him to fuck her in the ass. Why on earth? That doesn't make them victims - though it does objectify them, it doesn't make them being used. In both cases we're seeing the women practically begging the guy (or actively doing so) to use them. It'd be one thing if we saw Marty trying to come on to them over and over and make drunken, sad advances. But in both cases where we have a sex scene the woman is the aggressive actor. And both are filmed to give about as much titillation as possible.

This doesn't add to the victimization; if they wanted to do that, make Marty the aggressor. Show him doing what Rust said he could do - abuse his power as a cop. Show that every man is a bad man. But no - instead we get women practically falling over to fuck Marty. That's not victimization - that's fantasy.

Maybe it's a reflection of the storytelling and the flashbacks, but in this episode, we're getting some of the tale from Maggie's point of view. Particularly regarding the break down of Marty and Rust's partnership, as well as her marriage to Marty. I don't know if the scenes with Marty hooking up with Beth were meant to be from Maggie's perspective, but that's how I was viewing it. Particularly in that it was so graphic.

[Mark Antony]

Good analysis Kal - I think Lisa's relationship with Marty was a bit more plausible. She was hoping he would leave his wife and be with her. And Marty was much younger then.

Did she? I thought she specifically told Marty that she didnt want to marry him..

[Maithanet]

Maybe it's a reflection of the storytelling and the flashbacks, but in this episode, we're getting some of the tale from Maggie's point of view. Particularly regarding the break down of Marty and Rust's partnership, as well as her marriage to Marty. I don't know if the scenes with Marty hooking up with Beth were meant to be from Maggie's perspective, but that's how I was viewing it. Particularly in that it was so graphic.

How could they be from Maggie's perspective? She wasn't even there...

Are you saying that the onscreen relationship between Beth and Marty is what Maggie imagines their affair to be, rather than what actually happens? Because that seems like quite a logical leap to make. In addition, why would Maggie be fixated on Beth's breasts rather than on Marty's cheating face?

[Khal Pod]

I don't know if this has any real implications and I think it was somewhat coincidental, but as I was watching it seemed to me that Maggie raped Rust and with all of the strange icons/symbolic structures (antlers and stick pyramids, and pictures of victims) that it paralleled the other strange ceremonious rape that happened to Dora Lang.