R+L=J v. 125

[markg171]

I am not pushing the theory that Alys is Benjen's bastard. A Dance With Flagons brought it up. It seems to have been derailed by the belief that Benjen must have been the Stark in Winterfell at the time while Lady Karstark would be at Karhold. I merely demonstrated that this is not necessarily true -- Lyarra may have been the Stark in Winterfell, thus freeing up Benjen to be somewhere else.

I have not heard A Dance With Flagons' theory before and so I would like to hear more of it. I did not want to see the theory die based on a false assumption regarding the Stark in Winterfell.

I think it is unlikely Lyarra died birthing Benjen. First, if she was dead for that long, Rickard probably would have remarried. Second, Catelyn probably would have thought of that when she thought she was still young enough to give Ned more children.

The question I am referring to is the pro-RLJ question: "if Ned is really Jon's father, why does he never think of Jon's mother? If he really loved her, he would have thought of her." The response is that there is nothing strange about Ned never thinking of his old lover in his POV chapters, since he also never thinks about his mother.

In other words, the fact that Ned never thinks about an old lover does not mean that he never had such a lover.

You should look back at what Arya and Micah were doing in AGOT. Also, I don't want to spoil anything for you, but Syrio was not a dancing instructor.

As for Lyarra, she seems pretty significant. She is Ned's and Lyanna's mother, and Jon's grandmother. Robar Royce (son of Ned's friend, Yohn) may be "this or that random person." But Catelyn isn't. "On my honor as a Stark" is a pretty clear statement of who she thinks she is.

I always hated that argument. It was 16 years ago, why would he think of her?

Not only that, but I mean, we're supposed to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but Ned says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. You'd think if you saw the Rhaegar's child everyday he'd be reminded of Rhaegar every now and then, and wouldn't go years between thinking about him.

[markg171]

A couple of observations regarding the Stark/Targaryen mystique.

Part of the issue that I am having regarding the themes of the magical bloodlines is that there is a bit of a mixed message, unless its something that actually is deliberate.

On this issue, I respectfully disagree about Cat fulfilling this unknown reason as to why there must be a Stark in Winterfell, because I think there is a mystical reason. Perhaps whatever is in the crypts needs to have a guardian to keep them bound, and only someone with Stark blood can do that. Maybe its the magic woven through Winterfell itself, maybe in terms of the balance, keeping winter and the Others at bay. :dunno:

While Cat, from a purely politcal and legislative standpoint more than qualifies, (though like many politicians, I question her judgement), Ned putting her in charge for very non-mystical reasons makes sense. But, I think there is more to "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" than even Ned realizes.

I love Ned, but I think of all his "pack," he was always the least "wolf" amongst them, and maybe the least north in terms culture since he was probably fostered in the Vale from the age of seven, exposed to Robert, and seems to be unaware, or at least dismissive of Nans tales, (I also believe there is more to Nan than meets the eye in terms of the supernatural, and Hodor doesn't speak for a reason).

In terms of Lyarra, I got the very strong impression that she died giving birth to Benjen as she is never menitioned at all. Certainly the impression is that Lyanna grew up wild and motherless with only Nan, her brothers and her father.

One gets the impression that Cat is the only strong female presence of rank at WF for some time.

On the Targaryens, again, when we finally see the full scale of the family tree, we see their seed spread far and wide, and just about everyone in Westeros, with perhaps the exception of the Starks, are their kin in one form or another, with only the incest actually practised here and there, diluting their blood, and perhaps their bond with any dragon, (or at least that is my perception).

And if Varys is a Blackfyre, or a Targaryen on the Aerion Brightflame end of things, their wilingness to keep their blood more pure may be one of the reasons Varys may feel they, (the BF), may have the better claim, or right to the throne, because I actually do believe Varys is serious when he says he does care about the realm, and putting the rightful bloodline on the throne worthy of the dragons may be what validates his actions.

That might explain why Aerys went elsewhere to look for a dragon bride for Rhaegar, and when he couldn't find any of a rank, settled on Elia Martell with Elias mother prodding it along with hints of losing Dorne.

So now, you have a fairly pure blooded Lyanna in terms of the wolfs blood, and a pure blooded Rhaegar in terms of blood of the dragon, and boom, you have the right ingredients to actually end the world, fulfilling a prophesy in a backwards kind of way, (which is usually the way of prophesy and the mystical), with one exception of an outlier- Jon, a prince saved with a promise.

:dunno:

Ned's actually the most "wolf" of his family.

[Mithras]

A clue to R+L=J that I haven't seen in the OP. All the quotes are from the beginning of Game

From Catelyn I :

From Eddard I :

From Catelyn II :

But from Eddard II :

Nice find. Ned's lie can only be that Jon is his bastard. He never lied about his mother. He just didnot tell who she was.

[Ser Leftwich]

Ned's actually the most "wolf" of his family.

Care to elaborate on this?

[Alia of the knife]

Responsible Dog Break The Cat Fight: http://youtu.be/0FYJfXRAhC8

Now we know why the Lannisters kept the hound around.

(Sorry, back on topic) .

[Ser Creighton]

Responsible Dog Break The Cat Fight: http://youtu.be/0FYJfXRAhC8

Now we know why the Lannisters kept the hound around.

(Sorry, back on topic) .

That one cat started it, what a dick.

[Alia of the knife]

Ned's actually the most "wolf" of his family.

Compared to his siblings, and perhaps his ancestors, he appears to be the most moderate since Ned himself called them harsh.

I always got the sense that he might have felt like he didn't fit in. Robert states that he didn't love his own brothers.

I wonder if that wasn't a common denominator between them, and wonder if he might not have gone off on his own had Brandon lived given his statement to Cat about everything having been meant for "him" meaning Brandon.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Compared to his siblings, and perhaps his ancestors, he appears to be the most moderate since Ned himself called them harsh.

I always got the sense that he might have felt like he didn't fit in. Robert states that he didn't love his own brothers.

I wonder if that wasn't a common denominator between them, and wonder if he might not have gone off on his own given his statement to Cat about everything having been meant for "him" meaning Brandon.

I agree with that. He is Stark through and through (old ways), not as much wolf. All Stark with a heaping helping of guilt for taking what should have been Brandon's and keeping Lyanna's secrets.

He mentions Lyanna and Arya being wolf-blooded and people refer to Brandon that way.

He's more stoic, honorable, quietly kind (which really ends up getting him in trouble). Even descriptions of him at the tourney have him being the serious, less emotional one of the siblings.

[Alia of the knife]

That one cat started it, what a dick.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

We'll call that one Cersei. :thumbsup:

The dogs looked like a bunch of bouncers in a bar on a bad saturday night.

I agree with that. He is Stark through and through (old ways), not as much wolf. All Stark with a heaping helping of guilt for taking what should have been Brandon's and keeping Lyanna's secrets.

He mentions Lyanna and Arya being wolf-blooded and people refer to Brandon that way.

He's more stoic, honorable, quietly kind (which really ends up getting him in trouble). Even descriptions of him at the tourney have him being the serious, less emotional one of the siblings.

Let me clarify, I think he is the lesser wolf of his family, with perhaps more of loner mentality though that seemed to modify when he was older given his conversation with Arya about sticking together.

But I think in his youth, his cultural influences were less north and more south, though he gravitated back to, or was forced back to it when he became the new heir to WF.

[PrettyPig]

Ned is a wolf same as his siblings.....he's just the lone wolf who left the pack because there was room for only one alpha.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

I always hated that argument. It was 16 years ago, why would he think of her?

Not only that, but I mean, we're supposed to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but Ned says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. You'd think if you saw the Rhaegar's child everyday he'd be reminded of Rhaegar every now and then, and wouldn't go years between thinking about him.

IMHO, there are lots of explanations for this, for instance, maybe Ned meant was he never thought of Rhaegar as King... He was comparing King Robert Baratheon with the Targaryen heir, like "what if"? Also, maybe Ned purposely never thought of Rhaegar, trying to leave the past behind. It doesn't matter so much, does it? When facing imminent death, Ned's thoughts and dreams were directed to his family, to Jon... and Lyanna... "Promise me, Ned...".

[JonSnow4President]

I always hated that argument. It was 16 years ago, why would he think of her?

Not only that, but I mean, we're supposed to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but Ned says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. You'd think if you saw the Rhaegar's child everyday he'd be reminded of Rhaegar every now and then, and wouldn't go years between thinking about him.

I think he's lying to himself there. IIRC, he had mentioned Rhaegar in his thoughts multiple times in the books before that point.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think he meant he never thought about Rhaegar not as "Prince" but as "father". Jon's father, or as a man. I think that's the one chapter when he says something like "why gods look down at bastards but make men lusty?" (paraphrasing). He's thinking of Rhaegar as the father of a child and a man who loved Lyanna (and was loved back), not as "The Prince of Dragonstone".

(eta: tl;dr, he's thinking on Rhaegar's penis working).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think he's lying to himself there. IIRC, he had mentioned Rhaegar in his thoughts multiple times in the books before that point.

Good point! Rhaegar is mentioned in Eddard I, II, III, IV, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII and XV. That is, kind of, often.

"for the first time in years" happens in Eddard IX, that is two thirds of the way.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A clue to R+L=J that I haven't seen in the OP. All the quotes are from the beginning of Game

From Catelyn I :

From Eddard I :

From Catelyn II :

But from Eddard II :

It should be mentioned that the wedding took place early in the year (thus, the 15 years that Ned and Cat refer to in the first and third quote), as well as the 15 years of "riding forth to win a throne" (which would allude the moment where the armies had met up with one another, which occured even before the weddings)... Yet the 14 years would then be alluding to something that occured late in the year 283 AC, or early 284 AC... so either Lyanna's death itself and the promises, but, more likely, imo, the lies Ned had to tell (the truths, Ned had to withhold), when he came face to face with Robert, his bannermen, and his new wife.

I always hated that argument. It was 16 years ago, why would he think of her?

Not only that, but I mean, we're supposed to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but Ned says he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. You'd think if you saw the Rhaegar's child everyday he'd be reminded of Rhaegar every now and then, and wouldn't go years between thinking about him.

"Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away."

That bolded part, that's why Ned would think about her every now and then.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Right. Arya broke some rules--like running away from her Septa--but she never did the "boy" things until after they left WF. She didn't even have a sword until like the night before they were all leaving for the south. She rode roses quite well, but from what we know she never went off riding like Lyanna and Brandon did.

So, I'm sticking with Lyarra dying either birthing Ben or very soon afterwards.

Arya was only nine years old when she left Winterfell for KL. Hardly old enough to go "riding the Rills," I'd guess.

Regarding other unladylike things, see Catelyn's reflection to Brienne, from ACOK:

"And Arya, well... Ned's visitors would oft mistake her for a stableboy if they rode into the yard unannounced. Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart's desire. She had Ned's long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collect dolls, and would say anything that came into her head. I think she must be dead too." When she said that, it felt as though a giant hand were squeezing her chest...

.

[markg171]

Care to elaborate on this?

Wrote something on this in another thread awhile ago, so I'll just re-post that

Whenever people call Ned the "quiet wolf" I kind of laugh.

He certainly was "reckless" than his siblings, but for a guy who was supposedly less of a wolf than his siblings, he ended up fighting far more battles and wars than they ever did.

- tried to kill Littlefinger over a joke

- tried to stage a coup. Yes Stannis was the rightful heir, but he went about it completely the wrong way

- wanted to administer personal justice to Gregor fucking Clegane and kill him himself, but only didn't because his leg wouldn't let him. Yes he follows the old gods and believes in swinging the sword himself, but you're Hand of the King. You can't just ride off and bring justice to someone when you're supposed to be running the kingdom. If you want to kill him yourself because of your beliefs, have him arrested and brought before you, then kill him. Going off to take on an 8 foot tall knight and kill him yourself is not the behaviour of someone who is not a wolf

- He rode off to fight Mace Tyrell and the might of Highgarden at Storm's End, despite the fact that it was Robert's castle that was under siege and Robert was in KL. Nothing said he had to end that siege, yet he rode off to do it himself anyways.

- He took on the finest fighter in the country, and 2 other KG, with only 6 companions, 1 of which had spent the last year in a dungeon. And won.

- Took on 20 Lannister guardsmen with 3 men

- Was preparing to fight Mance Rayder's horde of wildlings when they're not his problem until they get passed the Wall

Anyways, that's just off the top of my head. But he certainly had the wolf's blood, even if he was quieter and felt bad when he killed people. A quiet wolf, is still a wolf. No one doubts that Ghost is any less of a wolf than Shaggydog. Just because he was "the quiet wolf" doesn't mean he wasn't a wolf.

[BearQueen87]

Ned's actually the most "wolf" of his family.

Do not agree at all.

Just read your new post. Saying that is "more" wolf than Brandon or Lyanna is untrue. He is a different kind of wolf. He was forced to be the "alpha" wolf when the true alpha died. That's not being "pure"wolf.

[The Twinslayer]

On my honor as a Tully, she told Lord Walder, on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy's life for Robb's. A son for a son.She puts Tully before Stark in the most important thing she ever says in her entire life.That's who she is, because she's a Tully by birth and Stark by marriage. Your argument is absolutely untrue unless you can show where it says "Catelyn is the Stark in Winterfell" instead of taking quotes out of context. Robb was the Stark in WF, as was Bran after him. It's common sense.

I don't understand. You are using a quote where she swears an oath on her honor as a Stark to prove that she is not a Stark.

[IceFire125]

If you have the blood of the First Men in you and have that certain gift of hearing the songs of the old tongues, you may have the gift to hear this cute white pup say...

"wuff wuff wuff....thanks for finally involving me in your R+L=J discussions"

http://i.imgur.com/HO9yInp.jpg