Infidelity

[Rorshach]

I can offer no advice, only my sympathies. 

[Seli]

Ouch. No advice at all, just a listening ear. Good luck working things out.

[beniowa]

Oh, Zabs, I'm so sorry.    I have no advice other than what others have already given.  Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. 

[Raja]

Zabzie, I'm sorry and good luck in what will undoubtedly be a very hard time for you and your family. 

My personal experience of this is from the other side - my parents split up due to reasons outlined in your post. Granted, I was  slightly older than your kids when they eventually separated, but to be honest, it was a long time coming and even as a 7/8/9 year old you can tell that it's going to happen eventually. I'm glad they did because it was impossible to live a life in that house - I imagine your kids also come into your decision as well. In essence, their relationship flamed out spectacularly. 

Anyway, good luck. We're rooting for you

[peterbound]

Goddamn.  I'm sorry you're having to go through this.  I've always enjoyed your posts here, and a look into your world (one different than my own).  I can only tell you that trust is hard to get back, and resentment becomes a cancer that grows if not dealt with (depending on the outcome of your decision) fully. 

I hope you are able to find some joy and comfort in all the love that you are getting from us around here. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I heart you all so much.

[Arkhangel]

The only thing I have to add to the amazing advice and support in this thread is firstly my sympathy that you're having to go through this, and secondly that I think in a situation like this, how you find out about the cheating makes a difference - as in, whether they come clean of their own accord or if you find out and if you hadn't then they'd still be lying to you.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

2 hours ago, Arkhangel said:

The only thing I have to add to the amazing advice and support in this thread is firstly my sympathy that you're having to go through this, and secondly that I think in a situation like this, how you find out about the cheating makes a difference - as in, whether they come clean of their own accord or if you find out and if you hadn't then they'd still be lying to you.

Also what my therapist said.  In this case, I discovered it.  I don't think he would have come clean otherwise.  That is a major factor in my mind.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

On 23 June 2016 at 11:40 PM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Oh Board Hive Mind - I need your thoughts.

About three weeks ago, I accidentally discovered that my husband (of 10 years) had been having an affair for 3 months with New Orleans stripper (he swears it was basically just texting/sexting, but (i) I have gotten myself tested for the full STD panel because, not dumb and (ii) he did send her what I consider a lot of money).  As a twist, he is also an alcoholic, and had been drinking heavily since December (I have some amazing stories, but that's for another thread).  He has finally admitted that he has a major problem with alcohol and is in treatment.  I had actually started seeing a therapist in April (i) because I could tell something was off and (ii) what I thought was going on was that the drinking was way out of hand and I wanted to get some tools to deal with it (or to decide that I couldn't).  We are currently in couples counselling.  He claims to be desperate to save the marriage, and trying to work it out, and his current behavior bears it out.  Three days out of five, I'm certain that this process ends in a (fairly amicable, actually) divorce.  I'm financially independent, so I'm certainly not trapped.  BUT, we have three small kids, and we work at the same place, and, except the fact that he's a lying liar who lies, I really like the guy when he is sober.  (Also, there is a possibility that he is coming to Worldcon so I've totally burned him, but you know, you guys are my friends :))

Here's my question.  It isn't should I stay or go - I don't know the answer to that.  Like I said, 3/5 of the time I think that it's over (that was always in my head my deal breaker, and I never understood why people would stay together - I get it a bit more now).  But for the 2/5 of the time, I wondered your thoughts - is it ever possible to rebuild trust after an infidelity in a non-open relationship?  Any experiences of it working out?  Any of it flaming out spectacularly?  Any people who were the unfaithful person want to chime in on their thoughts?  Thanks.

I really like what Mormont has said on the matter.

The upside is that he has seemingly accepted his problems, whilst that doesn't mean a good outcome is certain, it is the first requirement for improvement.

What I will say is you don't sound like you are despairing, nor do you sound like you truly hate living with him. The moment either of those is the case then you should definitely leave, you shouldn't make your life miserable, nor should you have your children grow up in that atmosphere.

That said if 2/5ths of you thinks that you can have a decent marriage with him, then I thinking it is worth braving it out for now. As I said before though, if both of you are committed to being decent parents to your 3 children then they should get a good upbringing regardless of what you decide with regards to your marriage.

I hope the informed ramblings of someone with essentially no relevant experience have managed to be of some interest/use to you.

[Sis Who Swears]

Oh Zabs, I am so sorry.
Like other people have said, I agree that once trust is gone it's almost impossible to get back. It CAN be done however, but it would take a stronger person than me to go that way.
I wish you and the babes all the best, no matter what you decide to do.

[Tears of Lys]

Let's see if I've got this right, Zabz.  Your husband began drinking heavily since December and he's recently started sexting/texting a stripper in Nawlins.  Right so far?  (There's a chance I missed some additional info since your original post.)

If what I've outlined above is the main gist of it, I do have a couple questions - if you don't mind!

What precipitated the sudden increase in drinking?  Was he always just a smidge away from being a raging alcoholic?

How happy is he with his job?  his life?  (not very, I'd speculate, which is not a BIG leap.)

"Is this marriage worth saving" is what all this boils down to.  From what I've read of your post(s) it seems as though you're already mentally packing your bags, for which I don't blame you.  Personally, I'd blow a gasket too.  In reading between the lines of your post, I presume this incident, combined with the antics associated with the drinking, has got you at your last nerve.  Certainly, the excessive drinking eased the way into the juvenile sexting to the woman.

Is this just the latest in a long line of trust destroying issues, or is it an isolated aberration in an otherwise happy marriage?  

It's good you two are in marriage counseling.  I'm assuming the counselor has gotten to the root of the problem(s) pretty quickly, if not they should have. 

I wish you the best in coming to whatever resolution can be achieved.   

[sologdin]

Quote

 the excessive drinking eased the way into the juvenile sexting to the woman.

not unreasonable.  let me provide a minority report, however--some people drink themselves to death when apart from the obscure object of desire.

[Houndred]

Sorry to read this Zabs. There is good advice here, and sounds like you have good support. Having been through this myself all I can say is it takes two to make it work, if you find you are doing all the work and he is not doing his part (for example-refusing to go to counseling or refusing to show you his phone or changing his password on his computer constantly.) Then walk away. I was lucky in that I could salvage a 16 year relationship by splitting up and after a healthy amount of time, being just friends. It's a lot easier to care about someone you've had a long relationship with if you don't have to care who they are sleeping with. 

All I can say is it eventually gets better, one way or the other, whatever you decide. 

[JGP]

Despite individual strengths, the fragility of trust ranges from tissue paper to some kind of stubborn composite. No matter the type you are though, or what you do to find trust again if you so choose, once it's gone there always remains [however slight] a bit of a void whose absence is replaced by a predator in the back of your mind, on the lookout. And that thing has a raptor gaze.

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this, yet have little doubt you'll figure the best course for yourself and your family. Best wishes to you and the kiddos.  

[Whitestripe]

Zabs: I'll say again how sorry I am that this has happened to you.  I'm glad you are in counseling (as a couple and alone). I know you'll land on your feet. I do think that finding the source of the drinking is a key to unlocking the "why" of his cheating, and I am happy to read that he's in treatment.  I would be very worried about him sending her a large sum of money.  Do you know why he did this? (Not that you need to say in public, I was just wondering if there was an explaination.) I know it's especially hard because you work together and you have young children. I know of couples who have divorced and remained friends and also of couples who have reconciled. Reconciliation usually means that both parties are 100% interested in working it out and not willing to accept any other outcome. Hang in there. 

[Inigima]

Fuckin' A, Zabz.

I don't have much useful advice except that I've seen it work once and seen it not work more than that. I think it's possible sometimes but hard and unfortunately I'm not sure other people can tell you for sure what to do.

Sorry to hear this happened. Best of luck.

[The Anti-Targ]

On 26/06/2016 at 2:32 AM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Also what my therapist said.  In this case, I discovered it.  I don't think he would have come clean otherwise.  That is a major factor in my mind.

If it was not associated with the underlying problem of addiction I would say this is bad and likely fatal. But this secretiveness is all part of the whole addiction problem, like hiding the alcohol so you can pretend to everyone that you are not drinking, or swapping one addiction for another and saying "hey, I'm fine, I'm not drinking any more." So address the underlying problem, the addiction, and everything else that's wrong may also be resolved. 

My friend is writing an article about people who divorce and later regret having divorced, she is also a recovering addict (anorexia/bulimia). She married my best friend from school, his mother is an alcoholic and he has completely cut all ties to her, she was not invited to their wedding, and I don't think she even knows she has a grandchild, and my friend is much better off that way. So, with my friend he has no relationship with one addict who never even tried to go into recovery, and he has a great marriage with another addict who did go into recovery. I can see the possibility that divorcing an addict has all the appearance of a good decision at the time, but if the addict is actually determined and makes great effort to overcome the addiction, and succeeds, in retrospect one might conclude that divorce was perhaps unnecessary. OTOH if he is unsuccessful with any attempt at becoming a recovering alcoholic then it is best for you and your children to cut ties. Basically, take your time to decide, perhaps even separate for a bit, and re-evaluate once there's been a bit of time passed and you can clearly observe what progress is being made in his commitment to change.

[Angalin]

Coming back to this again. Zabs, your comment about the process struck me: I remember realizing how badly things were going in my marriage and stepping through every way I could think of to fix it and make it work. I did that for years, because of the children and because my family doesn't readily accept divorce (I'm still on the shitlist of at least one person for it), before finally I felt like I'd run out of options.

If you need to work through that process the way I did, this may take a long time. If you can take the wonderful, caring advice others have offered above and pay attention to your own needs and feelings while you work through a joint process with your husband - which is necessary for the kids' sake, painful though it might be - I think you'll come through fine. Much love and courage to you. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

On 6/25/2016 at 7:56 PM, Tears of Lys said:

Let's see if I've got this right, Zabz.  Your husband began drinking heavily since December and he's recently started sexting/texting a stripper in Nawlins.  Right so far?  (There's a chance I missed some additional info since your original post.)

If what I've outlined above is the main gist of it, I do have a couple questions - if you don't mind!

What precipitated the sudden increase in drinking?  Was he always just a smidge away from being a raging alcoholic?

How happy is he with his job?  his life?  (not very, I'd speculate, which is not a BIG leap.)

"Is this marriage worth saving" is what all this boils down to.  From what I've read of your post(s) it seems as though you're already mentally packing your bags, for which I don't blame you.  Personally, I'd blow a gasket too.  In reading between the lines of your post, I presume this incident, combined with the antics associated with the drinking, has got you at your last nerve.  Certainly, the excessive drinking eased the way into the juvenile sexting to the woman.

Is this just the latest in a long line of trust destroying issues, or is it an isolated aberration in an otherwise happy marriage?  

It's good you two are in marriage counseling.  I'm assuming the counselor has gotten to the root of the problem(s) pretty quickly, if not they should have. 

I wish you the best in coming to whatever resolution can be achieved.   

My husband has always been a heavy drinker.  He has probably been a problem drinker for most of our relationship, in retrospect.  The drinking actually got REALLY bad 3 years ago, right after I got pregnant.  He did some pretty awful stuff drunk.  In the spring of 2015 he finally went to see a nutritionist (he'd gotten really fat - from the drinking) and stopped for 6 months or so (though, as he says now, never really considered quitting for good) for "health" reasons (though the nutritionist told him at the time that his liver function was already impaired).  He started again during the holidays.  And it was off to the races again.  I was really unhappy about that.  I was not subtle about being unhappy (though wasn't super specific about why).  And then N'awlins happened at the beginning of March, though I didn't know it.  I was on the verge of packing my bags, though I had actually with my counsellors help decided to move forward with him but find a way to confront him about the alcohol.  Before I could implement the plan, this happened.  He needs to figure out his own happiness - he's got his own baggage to deal with.  We're sort of at the beginning of the counselling process - will know more a couple of sessions in.

3 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

If it was not associated with the underlying problem of addiction I would say this is bad and likely fatal. But this secretiveness is all part of the whole addiction problem, like hiding the alcohol so you can pretend to everyone that you are not drinking, or swapping one addiction for another and saying "hey, I'm fine, I'm not drinking any more." So address the underlying problem, the addiction, and everything else that's wrong may also be resolved. 

My friend is writing an article about people who divorce and later regret having divorced, she is also a recovering addict (anorexia/bulimia). She married my best friend from school, his mother is an alcoholic and he has completely cut all ties to her, she was not invited to their wedding, and I don't think she even knows she has a grandchild, and my friend is much better off that way. So, with my friend he has no relationship with one addict who never even tried to go into recovery, and he has a great marriage with another addict who did go into recovery. I can see the possibility that divorcing an addict has all the appearance of a good decision at the time, but if the addict is actually determined and makes great effort to overcome the addiction, and succeeds, in retrospect one might conclude that divorce was perhaps unnecessary. OTOH if he is unsuccessful with any attempt at becoming a recovering alcoholic then it is best for you and your children to cut ties. Basically, take your time to decide, perhaps even separate for a bit, and re-evaluate once there's been a bit of time passed and you can clearly observe what progress is being made in his commitment to change.

Your first comment on the secretiveness being connected to the drinking is one of the things I want to explore.

2 hours ago, Angalin said:

Coming back to this again. Zabs, your comment about the process struck me: I remember realizing how badly things were going in my marriage and stepping through every way I could think of to fix it and make it work. I did that for years, because of the children and because my family doesn't readily accept divorce (I'm still on the shitlist of at least one person for it), before finally I felt like I'd run out of options.

If you need to work through that process the way I did, this may take a long time. If you can take the wonderful, caring advice others have offered above and pay attention to your own needs and feelings while you work through a joint process with your husband - which is necessary for the kids' sake, painful though it might be - I think you'll come through fine. Much love and courage to you. 

Thanks.  I think I will be somewhere in the middle.  My parents know and have basically told me I should leave him - so at least that isn't an issue!  Really, really appreciate the support.

[karaddin]

So the other thing I want to encourage you to do is at the end of the day trust yourself, and trust your feelings.  There is no right answer to this, there is no rational or logical answer to the direction you want to take your life and how you find your happiness.  It's an inherently emotional decision, and at some point as you work through the 'process' - whether its an actual process or just an emotional one - your underlying feelings will crystalise and on some level you'll know what you want to do.  If that is that you're willing to risk pain and heartache to stick at it and try and make it work, then you are willing to fight for that even if it does cost you.  If that is that the relationship is already over for you emotionally, then trust in the fact that you can't make something work when you've already decided the relationship is over and walk away and get on with the process of defining how your life is going to look afterwards.

Trusting yourself can be incredibly hard to do, but this is the kind of decision that tends to get made at a deeper level than the conscious/rational brain, and when it's made it means it.  I've been on the receiving end of my partner walking away because she knew it was over, and while I railed against it at the time it was absolutely the right thing to do and I'll be forever grateful to her for having the determination to do that and letting us both get on with our lives (no infidelity involved in that case, just the decision making process I'm talking about).  Personally I'm inclined to agree with ToL, what you're saying here reads like on some level the decision is made and it's just going to take time for it to filter up to the level you are aware of it, but judgement based on the tone of your posts is hardly definitive.