Spockydog Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Mormont, I totally get where your coming from. The subject matter is complex and delicate. But if you're looking for a forensic examination of racism in society, then Doctor Who isn't where you're going to find it. Having said that, I think they did an excellent job of conveying a) just how awful racists are, b) how awful and humiliating it is to be a victim of racism, and c) the importance of Rosa Parks to the entire civil rights movement.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I think it was mostly a strong episode and an improvement on the show's past form of talking about racism through allegory (The Dead Planet, Genesis of the Daleks) or how it impacts on white characters only (Remembrance of the Daleks). I did have one issue which is that if the bad dude's plan had succeeded, it suggests that the civil rights movement would never have happened. It was happening right then and lots of stuff was going on, which the Parks bus incident catalysed and headlined. But the legal challenge that led to the bus segregation being overturned was already ongoing, other African Americans had already made bus protests and the legal challenge that toppled the law was actually unrelated to Parks' protest. If Parks didn't do her bus protest, those other factors would have continued. Historical processes are generally the result of a huge number of factors, not one single person or incident. That isn't to say that Parks' protest wasn't important, symbolic and hugely influential, and it's great to think of kids looking up her Wikipedia entry or asking their teachers about it today, but it felt a bit simplistic to say that this one event would completely change history if undone. I get Mormont's point about the episode being good-intentioned, but putting fictional characters in the moment felt weird. I had the same feeling when both Quantum Leap and Red Dwarf tackled the shooting of JFK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I do share some of Mormont's concern about the message having had time to sleep on the episode, to be fair. I feel like a lot of it could have been fixed with two lines about 'this one time, we have to not help' because there is a risk that some kids might internalise the ending as 'when you see racism, don't step in'. I did feel that the show did a good job of keeping the moment the moment though. Okay, yes, Graham was having his own crisis and Ryan got the little nod and I can see why that might bother people, but ultimately they made it her decision and her fight, and at the end of the day they do have to make the show about them as well and I thought they balanced it well. It was much better than the horrendous mess of a racism message that came out of that Zygon episode, though that's a low bar. In large part because they did keep it to real racism and didn't use any allergories or make the bad guy have some other motive other than being racist which could have complicated matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 To me it felt rather heavy-handed about how this was such a Very Important Moment that had to happen. There were bits I liked, such as the villain's plan of derailing history by making lots of little changes instead of trying to kill Rosa, but overall I have similar feelings to Mormont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, polishgenius said: I do share some of Mormont's concern about the message having had time to sleep on the episode, to be fair. I feel like a lot of it could have been fixed with two lines about 'this one time, we have to not help' because there is a risk that some kids might internalise the ending as 'when you see racism, don't step in'. It was interesting timing, as we also had that huge news story about the old guy having a racist tirade at an old woman on a Ryanair flight at the weekend, which did reignited arguments about bystanders stepping in and people standing up for one another. I can imagine some interesting discussions in classrooms this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 hours ago, polishgenius said: Okay, yes, Graham was having his own crisis and Ryan got the little nod and I can see why that might bother people, but ultimately they made it her decision and her fight, and at the end of the day they do have to make the show about them as well and I thought they balanced it well. Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought. They only needed to be present to counteract the interference of the evil timetraveller, and if none of them had been there, events would have played out effectively the same. And the whole episode was very clearly about needing to ensure history wasn't altered - unless kids these days end up stuck in the past a lot, it's not something that has any direct application to the real world. Except in the most general terms of demonstrating delayed gratification, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 8 hours ago, Werthead said: I think it was mostly a strong episode and an improvement on the show's past form of talking about racism through allegory (The Dead Planet, Genesis of the Daleks) or how it impacts on white characters only (Remembrance of the Daleks). I did have one issue which is that if the bad dude's plan had succeeded, it suggests that the civil rights movement would never have happened. It was happening right then and lots of stuff was going on, which the Parks bus incident catalysed and headlined. But the legal challenge that led to the bus segregation being overturned was already ongoing, other African Americans had already made bus protests and the legal challenge that toppled the law was actually unrelated to Parks' protest. If Parks didn't do her bus protest, those other factors would have continued. Historical processes are generally the result of a huge number of factors, not one single person or incident. That isn't to say that Parks' protest wasn't important, symbolic and hugely influential, and it's great to think of kids looking up her Wikipedia entry or asking their teachers about it today, but it felt a bit simplistic to say that this one event would completely change history if undone. I get Mormont's point about the episode being good-intentioned, but putting fictional characters in the moment felt weird. I had the same feeling when both Quantum Leap and Red Dwarf tackled the shooting of JFK. It's interesting seeing these reactions from those of you across the pond. And I totally get that this is a British show, and that there are many more layers of the onion to the history that is the Civil Rights Movement, most of which it is painfully obvious that our British Cousins understand a lot better than so many Americans.  I think when you have an episode like this and you say, "if it doesn't happen, then the Civil Rights Movement is totally derailed!", it's because it is the moment everyone knows. Yes a lot of other things happened, and the Movement likely continues on in another manner, but people know Rosa Parks and it makes for the better amount of Drama. (Right or wrong.) This works because too many Americans are too awful at knowing and understanding our own history and this simplification for drama's sake goes easier. As for having the Doctor and Companions on the bus to witness...I'm torn. You want to see the moment, but do they need to be there? This is actual history, not Riker and LaForge hopping a ride on the first warp ship. I think this all makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Overall, I liked the episode although some of the writing got a bit clunky at times. When basing the plot around such a famous historical moment and one that means so much to so many people I think there was a lot of potential for things to go horribly wrong, but I think they avoided that. The most contentious bit is having them occupying some of the seats on the bus. I think there's some justification for that by saying they're just counteracting the villain's plan, but they could have done without that fairly easily by having a few more passengers get on the bus at the last stop. I thought the episode did a good job of showing the oppressive atmosphere of the time. The villain is a bit under-written, but the real enemy here is the system, not the traveller. The supporting cast was good, particularly the actress playing Rosa Parks. I think most of the episode works, although it was let down a bit by some plot developments that felt like they came from a sitcom, such as the interrupted fishing trip. 10 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said: I think when you have an episode like this and you say, "if it doesn't happen, then the Civil Rights Movement is totally derailed!", it's because it is the moment everyone knows. Yes a lot of other things happened, and the Movement likely continues on in another manner, but people know Rosa Parks and it makes for the better amount of Drama. (Right or wrong.) This works because too many Americans are too awful at knowing and understanding our own history and this simplification for drama's sake goes easier. It could also be a comment on how the white villain assumes that it was all due to a single person's actions on one particular day rather than a wider movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I think they definitely skirted too close to the idea of our characters herding Rosa Parks along on her path.  It’s a bad trope, akin to that old one of futuristic aliens built the pyramids because the Egyptians wouldn’t’ve been able to.  They took pains to pull back from that but it’s still right there. As for Ryan zapping a guy back to prehistory, yeah, that’s an evil act.  Like mormont I can only hope they’re going to revisit that. But the scene where Parks (didn’t) make her stand was well done and not mawkish (although the bit where they all stand in the TARDIS and watch her get the congressional medal was) and the show in general has definitely got more dynamic, with better through lines. They seem to be benefiting from Chibnall’s thriller writing experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, john said: As for Ryan zapping a guy back to prehistory, yeah, that’s an evil act.  Like mormont I can only hope they’re going to revisit that. I am reasonably certain that there was something cut in the edit from that mini-plotline, presumably because the only place to adress it was between the bus scene and the asteroid scene, but Ryan using guns is already a series thread so I'd imagine it will come up again even if indirectly. Krasko coming back wouldn't surprise me. The Weeping Angel gun is quite a contrived method of murder so unless the point was just to have Ryan kill someone without him actually killing someone it feels like that's kinda got to come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 It’s the vagueness that makes it sinister.  Ryan says something like he sent Krasko back to the beginning of everything.  Well if that’s true he certainly murdered him.  If they’d just had a line saying he sent him away, or even he sent him back a few hundred years, then that’s fine.  It’s oddly out of character, not so much that he did it but that he thought nothing of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018  On 10/22/2018 at 8:02 PM, mormont said: I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying I'm not sure the choice to put the Doctor and her companions in that position of complicity was intended to show how even ordinary white people are complicit in racism, because (among other things) that would be a bit of a switch from how the show has depicted racism in the rest of the episode. I dunno. I'm still wrestling with it a bit. There's no need for the Doctor and Graham and Yaz to be there for that, though. Ryan would be enough. For that matter, none of the team being on the bus would be enough. They could simply have made sure Rosa got on the bus, and then the makers could have had the camera switch to follow Rosa, leaving it as her moment alone. Instead they made what is quite clearly a deliberate choice to insert the white characters into the centre of the moment, and I'm still figuring out what that means, particularly as it was (presumably) a choice the black co-writer either made or signed off on. I understand your mixed feelings on this perhaps being a muddled message, I will say that its definitely not something the writing team did unintentionally though - the show was pretty explicit on the fact that they were being complicit in the racism and were deeply uncomfortable with it. I did take it as commentary on the complicity of white people in the system, but you're right that Yazz being involved doesn't fit. At least not in her being a woman of colour - perhaps it does with her being a police officer though? She's bought into the same society, the same system and whether she's dedicated to improving that system there is still an inherent acceptance of the underpinning injustices of the system in doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 On 10/23/2018 at 1:01 AM, john said: It’s the vagueness that makes it sinister.  Ryan says something like he sent Krasko back to the beginning of everything.  Well if that’s true he certainly murdered him.  If they’d just had a line saying he sent him away, or even he sent him back a few hundred years, then that’s fine.  It’s oddly out of character, not so much that he did it but that he thought nothing of it. I'd be amazed if krasko doesn't return. Ryan's "beginning of time" was probably vague so I suspect it's going to bite the team in the ass further along the season. I imagine krasko could easily set himself up as a pretty nasty god (anyone know any ancient god's whose name sounds like a distorted krasko?) if he's in an era with humans with or without time travel gadgets and he could really screw up earth's timeline. Or he's maybe even craftier nudging multiple things in wrong directions. The episode itself was one of the strongest Dr who episodes I've seen in a long time particularly because it used the time travel well for a change. It was also great to get the social commentary and it was surprising just how shocking the impact of the derogatory word for "Pakistani/Indian" was used in the episode and reminded me it should be regarded with the same level of nastiness as the "N" word which realistically should have appeared within the episode but I can understand why it wasn't used in an all ages show that has an American audience. It just made me uncomfortable that they could use the "p" word instead. But hey, it's nice to actually have such thoughts and issues raised over an episode of Dr who instead of "what is the companion's secret" and "does this fit in with the episode involving the second Dr" I'm hoping this is the series hitting it's stride as the reboot has been more than worth it if this is the kind of stories we'll be getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I thought the way he phrased it was that "he set the weapon to the furthest back it would go" which is wonderfully ambiguous and definitely doesn't sound like the start of the universe or even the Earth. It could be the time of the dinosaurs, it could be the time of Christ. I might be misremembering though. I'm giving Dr Who a try essentially for the first time with this season - I watched the anniversary episode a few years ago but nothing else, the regeneration definitely seems like a decent entry point. She's hitting a note with her performance of the doctor that's really making me associate with Tennant despite my not having seen him as the Doctor for more than a double episode so I think she's definitely doing something good that's calling back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 15 hours ago, karaddin said: I thought the way he phrased it was that "he set the weapon to the furthest back it would go" which is wonderfully ambiguous and definitely doesn't sound like the start of the universe or even the Earth. It could be the time of the dinosaurs, it could be the time of Christ. I might be misremembering though. I remember him saying that as well, although it's very possible Ryan didn't really have much of a clue how to work the device and could have sent him to a random time. Thinking more about it, if we weren't expected to see the villain again then they'd probably have closed the episode with a shot showing where he ended up - look miserable while surrounded by confused Native Americans or even more confused Silurians, depending on how far back he was sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Another one ticked off the list- the scary episode. A good one too. Nothing earth-shattering, but confident, smart writing and plenty of good acting (though the sorta-baddie was scenery chewing a bit too much at times, and in general felt a bit incomplete), scary in moments especially if you don't like spiders but funny too and the character work for the companions was on point. With finally a Yaz-focused episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Gotta skip this one I think, its spiders yes? I'm not down for spiders. Which is annoying because Yaz-focused sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingintheNorth4 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Yeah no, not a fan of spiders, so I gotta skip this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I really liked this. I could take or leave the whole spider thing, that was the weakest part of the episode. That may sound weird, saying that I thought the episode was good while not particularly liking the plot, but I felt that there was other aspects that made this a solid B episode for me. I liked seeing Yaz's family getting a bit more of a feel for her as a person. I think the most defining thing about Yaz is that she wants more out of life. She clearly feels a little trapped by her family, her job, and probably her life in general, the opportunity to travel with the doctor is what she needed to take the leap. I look forward to seeing her develop more. That said, I thought that the real star of this episodes was Graham. Going in, Graham was the character I was most meh about. I thought that he was just gonna be a boring old white guy, but this episode gave him quite a lot of depth. The scenes of him returning to his and Joy's apartment was very good, you really felt for the guy. The whole thing with him trying to work through his grief having lost his partner seems like it could have some legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I'm wondering if Graham might do something dangerous like try and save his wife. There were points in the Rosa parks episode where he mentioned his wife and in the context of the episode he may have briefly considered it. It's a valid question for someone with a time machine to ask. Maybe a "resolution" could be in grabbing his wife from the timestream prior to episode 1 and letting her spend months/years with Graham somewhere secluded before returning her to her fate. She did come off as the most adjusted to the aliens. I'd need to rewatch episode 1 to closely monitor her actions for that to be anything other than wild speculation though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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