Westworld VIII: Forging On

[Spring Bass]

I've been thinking about Dolores' storyline, and I've come to believe that it was a mistake to give her all kinds of cryptic, "I remember everything" knowledge that she then had to keep secret from everyone around her for the sake of the mystery. It turned her into little more than a plot device for most of the season. 

Dolores would have been much more interesting character-wise (and going into the third season in the outside world) if she didn't have a ton of cryptic knowledge. If, for example, she only had a handful of memories of the outside world, her memories in the park, and some impression from Ford that she needs to destroy the Cradle and will find "answers"/"escape"/"a weapon"/etc at the Forge. The end is good - I like that Dolores finds out the "escape" is "uploading to a paradisical simulated world" and reacts with anger and dismay - but it would have been even better if there had been confusion and fear on her part as well. If she really was stepping out into a whole new world at the end of Season Two with little knowledge or idea of what it will hold for her, Bernard, and the other hosts she brought with her. 

 

[Fragile Bird]

Geez, DMC, I did my 3rd re-watch and meant to come here and say something similar and dammit all, you beat me to it!

I think the writers have given us three potential outcomes to the story, represented by the three different characters.

Outcome 1 is the Dolores goal, burn the world to the ground, a version of the robots-take-over-and-kill-everyone plot line. She’s so harsh she kills hosts who don’t meet her standard. The fact that she changed enough that she allowed the hosts to escape to a digital world is significant for her, but I don't see her changing her mind about humans. She is all host.

Outcome 2 happens if Bernard succeeds. Bernard did not realize he was a host for a long time and worked alongside humans for many years. He had an affair with a human. He is deeply disturbed by Dolores’s actions. He is deeply disturbed by the actions of humans too, Elsie’s death shocking him horribly and moving him to make a decision with a powerful emotional effect on him, recreating Dolores who he knows will kill more humans. He sees the right of both humans and hosts to survive, largely based, I think, on the fact he worked so closely with humans, which has shaped him differently than the hosts who are remorselessly and repeatedly murdered by humans.

Outcome 3 follows Maeve. Maeve has developed incredible powers, and while I think many of us thought she would be more like Dolores based on her threats to people like Felixxand Sylvester, she in fact did not see slaughtering humans as the righteous thing to do. She works with humans, but she doesn’t then discard them. Not the way that poor tech got sent off with the train to be blown up, or other humans who were casually slaughtered after being used by Dolores. Maeve’s path seems to be the preferred outcome, where hosts work with humans but have the upper hand, reversing what had previously been the order of things.

Bernard’s outcome would see hosts and humans as equals, I think, although Elsie’s death and her comments about what to do about him both really shook him up.

[.H.]

7 hours ago, Casablanca Birdie said:

Bernard’s outcome would see hosts and humans as equals, I think, although Elsie’s death and her comments about what to do about him both really shook him up.

Hmm, your post has me considering things at a more archetypal level than before.

I am considering the idea of Dolores as an "avatar" of human vengeance delivering meaning.  Bernard as compassion and creation delivering meaning.  And then so, Maeve as sort of a disjunctive union, vengeance tempered with compassion, then splashed with "creation" via her "daughter."

A facile and not fully articulated idea, but interesting to consider perhaps...

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but I noticed something last night and I can't recall if it was already mentioned. In the mid-credit scene, William's hand is all messed up. This is also likely the same William that got shot a bunch of times. My understanding is that is the same William that killed Emily. So how was there another Emily ready to go? Are there numerous versions of all the key players, much like Bernard? 

[RumHam]

49 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but I noticed something last night and I can't recall if it was already mentioned. In the mid-credit scene, William's hand is all messed up. This is also likely the same William that got shot a bunch of times. My understanding is that is the same William that killed Emily. So how was there another Emily ready to go? Are there numerous versions of all the key players, much like Bernard? 

That's not the way I interpenetrated things, I don't think that's the same William. I thought that William was a human the whole time except that post creids scene. The human william was probably evacuated along with fake Hale and lived out the rest of his life (however short it may have been with Dolores in the real world.)

Then untold years later someone (Probably Delores but maybe some version of Ford or even Bernard) recreated him as a host and tested him over and over again by having him run a scenario consisting basically of the older william's in park journey since season one. His cornerstone being murdering his own daughter due to his paranoia. He's probably gone through that loop thousands of times but the first time he did it he was human. 

I agree he should have died or been immobilized by his wounds. For what it's worth there is a throw away line about the Ghost Nation healing him. Giving the writers the benefit of the doubt maybe a quick bit where he grabbed another "health pack" after initially being shot was cut. Either way I don't think his seemingly superhuman resilience is supposed to be a clear indicator that he was a host the first time around. Otherwise he wouldn't have been questioning his reality. He would have realized "hey, how am I still alive?" as would Grace and the Delos people who eventually find him. 

 

[DMC]

5 hours ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but I noticed something last night and I can't recall if it was already mentioned. In the mid-credit scene, William's hand is all messed up. This is also likely the same William that got shot a bunch of times. My understanding is that is the same William that killed Emily. So how was there another Emily ready to go? Are there numerous versions of all the key players, much like Bernard? 

Like RumHam said, and the showrunners have already confirmed in interviews, the "Emily" you see in the mid-credits scene is not the actual Emily since that scene is in the "far, far, future."  As they established in the episode with all the James Delos iterations perpetually returning to the day he turned his back on Logan shortly before the latter OD'ed, the reason Logan is going through that loop is because his greatest regret is killing his daughter, and a human's cornerstone is their greatest regret.

The (apparently) human William in our current timeline was shown at the end receiving medical attention on the beach as Halores converses with maybe-host Stubbs and gets on the boat, so he will be back next season far (far) before the version of him that appears in the mid-credits scene.

[Cas Stark]

I love Ed Harris, but what is left to do with his character at this point?  

Ford, who is 'dead' has more potential as a ghost than William.

[unJon]

9 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I love Ed Harris, but what is left to do with his character at this point?  

Ford, who is 'dead' has more potential as a ghost than William.

As the head of Delos, I can think of a lot of potential for his character outside of the park. 

[dbunting]

On 6/29/2018 at 5:58 PM, chiKanery et al. said:

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but I noticed something last night and I can't recall if it was already mentioned. In the mid-credit scene, William's hand is all messed up. This is also likely the same William that got shot a bunch of times. My understanding is that is the same William that killed Emily. So how was there another Emily ready to go? Are there numerous versions of all the key players, much like Bernard? 

I don't think we really know about William. If you remember right when Delores is in the forge getting her tour, before getting to the library, they are walking past some rooms and one of the guests is William, all in black, he is seated and being talked to just like a host would. I know it was in VR/forge, but it shows they were already working on him / his mind at a minimum.

[Spring Bass]

Maeve's storyline this season was very much felt like a "it's not the destination, but the journey". Her storyline was the most entertaining and enjoyable to watch, even if the ending of it was a little meh. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 6/30/2018 at 7:29 PM, dbunting said:

I don't think we really know about William. If you remember right when Delores is in the forge getting her tour, before getting to the library, they are walking past some rooms and one of the guests is William, all in black, he is seated and being talked to just like a host would. I know it was in VR/forge, but it shows they were already working on him / his mind at a minimum.

Correct, and I took that to mean that host William isn’t in a far off future timeline.  

[Mark Antony]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:28 PM, Los Ticos Mexal said:

What a mediocre season. Really disappointing. Outside of episode 4 and 8, wasn't a real big fan of much of it. Only really 3-4 characters I cared about and they were all secondary or tertiary. That's a big issue. Not at all looking forward to season 3.

It’s hard to really care when there’s a 90% chance if a character dies she/he will be coming back. 

28 minutes ago, chiKanery et al. said:

Correct, and I took that to mean that host William isn’t in a far off future timeline.  

The show runners straight up said the post credit scene is in the far future. Think the link is posted a few pages back 

[DaveSumm]

Finally caught up (no way in hell I would’ve waited this long for the S1 finale). Overall, I think they had a great idea for this season with the ‘hosts are recording human behaviour’ concept, but it was let down by its need to be a sequel to S1. The whole season was a giant stall before they got all the characters where they needed to be for this finale, which was pretty good, but like others I just didn’t care by then. The shot of Dolores body with her eye shot out was probably supposed to shocking, but wasn’t. These things carry no weight anyway, what with William/MiB/CowFromMeMyselfandIrene wandering around wounded for a whole season (remember when we wondered if he’d survived S1? Imagine you said “yes, then he gets shot a dozen or so times more, then is still basically fine”.)

I just wish they’d been bolder. Kick off decades after the events of S1, some other company have built a whole new park where the old one was ... except someone has discovered what Ford was up to, what the real goal was. They need to finally uncover that mess and find out what happened. Maybe they find Bernard buried and rusted somewhere, then pull his memories. Meanwhile, you have the mother of all bonuses for the writers where the standard “why don’t the characters remember this” in flashbacks is baked in fixed: we know all these characters have been on erasable loops since forever, you can do any story in any time period and still have all the same characters doing the same loops. What a sandbox to play in, and they went with ‘the immediate aftermath’ and ‘slightly after the immediate aftermath’. Meh.

I guess it has to find a way to still be a ‘western’ to some extent, but I got bored with what I guess were supposed to be ‘cool’ moments for characters, Dolores shooting up a bunch of people, Maeve being Neo ... again, I just don’t find the continuing adventures of these characters that interesting. It was always about the concepts for me. I’ll certainly catch Season 3 but I won’t be that excited I don’t think.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Casting News:

https://deadline.com/2018/09/westworld-aaron-paul-cast-season-3-series-regular-1202464194/

Quote

EXCLUSIVE: HBO’s sprawling sci-fi drama series Westworld is getting a major new cast addition. Former The Path and Breaking Badstar Aaron Paul is joining the third season

The producers are being tight-lipped on the character but, I hear Paul will be a series regular.

 

[DMC]

See, most places will be encouraging this with some type of "Yeah Bitch" from Pinkman.  The best will take the "Yeah Mr. White, Yeah Science" quote.  But me?  No.  What about a magnet yo?

 

[red snow]

4 hours ago, DMC said:

See, most places will be encouraging this with some type of "Yeah Bitch" from Pinkman.  The best will take the "Yeah Mr. White, Yeah Science" quote.  But me?  No.  What about a magnet yo?

 

If Futurama and electrical appliance manuals have taught me anything it's that robots can't handle magnets.

I just like the idea there's a "breaking bad world". Maybe Walt was a player who suddenly realised he was in a game and decided to fuck with everyone and everything?

[Spring Bass]

I'm guessing Aaron Paul as sleazy business executive that Dolores is manipulating for her own aims. 

I kind of wonder how they're going to do this in seasons 3 onward. Dolores is straight up genocidal, which is probably going to get more and more uncomfortable to watch as time goes on. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the way that the overthrow of humanity happens is with trickery - i.e. dangle the process of digital immortality and paradise for humans, watch as most of them get uploaded into a completely simulated world (which is the only place where they're stable, unlike in host bodies), and boom! Dolores and her ilk now own the real world.  

[DMC]

1 hour ago, All Souls Bass said:

I kind of wonder how they're going to do this in seasons 3 onward. Dolores is straight up genocidal, which is probably going to get more and more uncomfortable to watch as time goes on. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the way that the overthrow of humanity happens is with trickery - i.e. dangle the process of digital immortality and paradise for humans, watch as most of them get uploaded into a completely simulated world (which is the only place where they're stable, unlike in host bodies), and boom! Dolores and her ilk now own the real world.  

I prefer to think of Dolores as skynet (although no argument with describing her as genocidal).  And you're right, she obviously is taking a more stealth, or tricky (mayhaps chicanery), way in conquering the world - albeit I'm not sure the method you suggest will be what transpires.  Anywho, that makes for better, and cheaper, television.  I look forward to it.

[Corvinus85]

Season 3 trailer.

Quite interesting. I watched it ahead of the GoT episode, and I kinda had a feeling this was Westworld. While the story was convoluted in season 2, seeing the how the real world looks in this future will, hopefully, be compelling.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Season 3 trailer.

Quite interesting. I watched it ahead of the GoT episode, and I kinda had a feeling this was Westworld. While the story was convoluted in season 2, seeing the how the real world looks in this future will, hopefully, be compelling.

First - Fuck yeah Jesse Pinkman, Fuck yeah science!  It is a very weird trailer though, I'm not sure any of the characters we know are in it.  Was that Evan Rachel Wood at the end?  Honestly couldn't tell.  Would make sense if it was but I'm not gonna assume.  Seems as if Nolan is kinda rebooting it for the futuristic shit.  Wouldn't be surprised if we don't see the three that escaped - Dolores, Bernard, and..man I thought there was a third.  Isn't there -- or maybe there's not?  Regardless I still wanna know what the fuck's going on with Maeve, who's still in there, so..hm.