UK Politics: The Edge of Destruction

[Heartofice]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

This is well worth reading. Peter Osbourne, Tory Leaver, decides Brexit has all been a bit of a disaster and is backing Remaining. I have to say I'm inclined to agree with him on a lot of it. As bad as the EU is, and as much as I feel like we would be better outside of it, the process of leaving has been handled so badly that it can only be damaging to the country. 

Worth reading. 

[Ser Hedge]

4 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Indeed. Pretty entertaining piece in the Guardian about these idiots.

Think the Brexiteers are bad? Meet the Brincels

 

Reminds me of the nincompoop, utterly incompetent but highly entitled officers in Cornwell's Sharpe novels ("silk stockings full of shit"). The first contact with the enemy in an actual engagement always turned into a disaster and they'd play politics to blame it on someone else.

[Werthead]

19 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

It seems like its time for an independent unified Ireland. If the UK was out of N.Ireland then that border controversy disappears for their Brexit, does it not?

There are various reasons why this is not going to happen imminently. The Good Friday Agreement essentially booted the issue into the long grass for both the Republic of Ireland and the UK, quite deliberately, until the Republican cause has overwhelming public support. The rate of demographic change in Northern Ireland makes this very likely in about 20 years or so - maybe 10 years if you want it to be a razor-thin margin - and the Republican theory seems to be to hang on until that happens and then hold the referendum and that's the end of that.

Holding the referendum now isn't in either camp's interest: Sinn Fein believe it's likely they'd lose and the Unionists fear that the Brexit issue might push both the secular swing voters and even Protestant Remainers into voting for the union and they'd lose. It'd be on a knife edge and if the populace voted by say 51-49 either way, that'd cause a massive uproar, possibly the return of violence etc. 

There's also the point that the Republic of Ireland isn't massively keen on having to absorb Northern Ireland and its people into the Republic system overnight. It's not exactly as difficult as reuniting the Koreas, or the reunification of Germany, but there are differences and misalignments between the RoI and Northern Ireland that would be very expensive to smooth out, and the RoI does not want to be dealing with that right now.

Quote

 

First up, Francois, who between 1983 and 1989 was a part-time officer in the Territorial Army, and since then has relied heavily on military terms in everyday conversation

 

I hate to break it to Francois, but being in the Territorial Army does not make you Patton or Montgomery. In addition, most military training actually will cover what happens when you have no choice but to retreat or surrender. No modern Western army on the planet instructs its forces to keep fighting when to do so no longer fulfils any kind of tactical or strategic point.

Quote

 

Reminds me of the nincompoop, utterly incompetent but highly entitled officers in Cornwell's Sharpe novels

 

I think Cornwell regretted that characterisation later on. By a few years into the Napoleonic Wars, let alone in the bloody hell of the Peninsular War, any such nincompoop officer would be dead in extremely short order. I was more impressed later on when he had officers who hated Sharpe for various reasons (some of them even justified) but weren't completely useless in battle (thinking particularly of the guy who stole Sharpe's wife after he was terrible to her, who was presented as an arsehole but then showed real bravery and skill at Waterloo; he was played by Alexis Denisof in the TV version).

[Ser Hedge]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There are various reasons why this is not going to happen imminently. The Good Friday Agreement essentially booted the issue into the long grass for both the Republic of Ireland and the UK, quite deliberately, until the Republican cause has overwhelming public support. The rate of demographic change in Northern Ireland makes this very likely in about 20 years or so - maybe 10 years if you want it to be a razor-thin margin - and the Republican theory seems to be to hang on until that happens and then hold the referendum and that's the end of that.

Holding the referendum now isn't in either camp's interest: Sinn Fein believe it's likely they'd lose and the Unionists fear that the Brexit issue might push both the secular swing voters and even Protestant Remainers into voting for the union and they'd lose. It'd be on a knife edge and if the populace voted by say 51-49 either way, that'd cause a massive uproar, possibly the return of violence etc. 

There's also the point that the Republic of Ireland isn't massively keen on having to absorb Northern Ireland and its people into the Republic system overnight. It's not exactly as difficult as reuniting the Koreas, or the reunification of Germany, but there are differences and misalignments between the RoI and Northern Ireland that would be very expensive to smooth out, and the RoI does not want to be dealing with that right now.

I hate to break it to Francois, but being in the Territorial Army does not make you Patton or Montgomery. In addition, most military training actually will cover what happens when you have no choice but to retreat or surrender. No modern Western army on the planet instructs its forces to keep fighting when to do so no longer fulfils any kind of tactical or strategic point.

I think Cornwell regretted that characterisation later on. By a few years into the Napoleonic Wars, let alone in the bloody hell of the Peninsular War, any such nincompoop officer would be dead in extremely short order. I was more impressed later on when he had officers who hated Sharpe for various reasons (some of them even justified) but weren't completely useless in battle (thinking particularly of the guy who stole Sharpe's wife after he was terrible to her, who was presented as an arsehole but then showed real bravery and skill at Waterloo; he was played by Alexis Denisof in the TV version).

Lord John Rossendale.

[Derfel Cadarn]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There are various reasons why this is not going to happen imminently. The Good Friday Agreement essentially booted the issue into the long grass for both the Republic of Ireland and the UK, quite deliberately, until the Republican cause has overwhelming public support. The rate of demographic change in Northern Ireland makes this very likely in about 20 years or so - maybe 10 years if you want it to be a razor-thin margin - and the Republican theory seems to be to hang on until that happens and then hold the referendum and that's the end of that.

Holding the referendum now isn't in either camp's interest: Sinn Fein believe it's likely they'd lose and the Unionists fear that the Brexit issue might push both the secular swing voters and even Protestant Remainers into voting for the union and they'd lose. It'd be on a knife edge and if the populace voted by say 51-49 either way, that'd cause a massive uproar, possibly the return of violence etc. 

There's also the point that the Republic of Ireland isn't massively keen on having to absorb Northern Ireland and its people into the Republic system overnight. It's not exactly as difficult as reuniting the Koreas, or the reunification of Germany, but there are differences and misalignments between the RoI and Northern Ireland that would be very expensive to smooth out, and the RoI does not want to be dealing with that right now.

I hate to break it to Francois, but being in the Territorial Army does not make you Patton or Montgomery. In addition, most military training actually will cover what happens when you have no choice but to retreat or surrender. No modern Western army on the planet instructs its forces to keep fighting when to do so no longer fulfils any kind of tactical or strategic point.

I think Cornwell regretted that characterisation later on. By a few years into the Napoleonic Wars, let alone in the bloody hell of the Peninsular War, any such nincompoop officer would be dead in extremely short order. I was more impressed later on when he had officers who hated Sharpe for various reasons (some of them even justified) but weren't completely useless in battle (thinking particularly of the guy who stole Sharpe's wife after he was terrible to her, who was presented as an arsehole but then showed real bravery and skill at Waterloo; he was played by Alexis Denisof in the TV version).

To be fair, Rossendale's battle experience was charging around on a big horse mostly butchering fleeing infantry. And deciding 5 minutes of combat made him a match for Sharpe who'd spent two decades fighting wars.

I think the main incompetent officer was the original South Essex colonel, but he was only there because he had connections, and paid for his battalion out of his own pocket. And he got booted out pretty quick.

[The Anti-Targ]

9 hours ago, mormont said:

Mark Francois wants an 'indicative vote' of Tory party MPs to get rid of Theresa May as leader, and, he hopes, trigger a no-deal Brexit. But then Mark Francois is the type of person who will use the word 'Remainiacs' in a formal letter to the 1922 committee, and who can't spell 'Sinn Fein' or distinguish between 'loath' and 'loathe'. 

These fucking people. 

Though the core of his assertion is correct: May has been a failure as a leader. And one could possibly rightly accuse her of hubris. Though interesting that it's a failure as a leader of the party, rather than failure as a leader of the country. Suggestive of where his true loyalties reside?

[Spockydog]

Something just happened in the Commons. Not quite sure what it means.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

"Part time officer in the Territorial Army" sounds like the most dismissive of possible descriptions of one's military  service without outright saying that it shouldn't even be called military service.

[Spockydog]

Just now, The Anti-Targ said:

"Part time officer in the Territorial Army" sounds like the most dismissive of possible descriptions of one's military  service without outright saying that it shouldn't even be called military service.

From the New Statesman:

Quote

Tories are laughing at, not with, their party’s pugnacious weekend warrior Mark Francois. The volatile Brextremist and former Territorial Army officer, forever comparing leaving the EU to fighting a war, is known as “Uncle Albert” by Conservative troops – including, I’m told, Michael Gove – after the Only Fools and Horses comedy character who endlessly regurgitated Royal Navy tales. Ridicule of the toy soldier among Tory infantry has spread to the SNP battalion. When the nationalist Little Englander rises in the Commons to explode, tartan footsoldiers mutter “During the war…” in old seadog Uncle Albert’s mockney tones. Pilloried armchair stormtrooper Francois could always fire back by waving his MA in War Studies.

[The Anti-Targ]

Goddamit I miss 'Only Fools and Horses' now.

[polishgenius]

Surely him banging on about the TA all the time makes him Gareth Keenan.

[ants]

On 4/6/2019 at 1:06 AM, Heartofice said:

Its really just this deeply unpleasant rhetoric, that older voters are going to just die off and then the young voters with their ideas will take over. Its said with a sort of maniacal glee quite often.  

Like you say it's just as likely that they will become less idealistic over time and more realistic, and will also have a point of reference to judge the changes in their country. They might well at that point want to rejoin the EU of course, but they might not. 

Hang on a second, the group who voted in line with economic best interests and not racism are the idealists, rather than the realists?  The ones who didn't listen to a bunch of lies told about leaving?  The ones who voted for a choice that didn't mean 10 different things to 10 different people?

The underpinning element of those who argue the whole age element are threefold:

1) That the idea that the electorate can't change its mind, when the actual demographics have changed, is ridiculous.  People arguing against this are fundamentally saying that past votes should hold regardless of the current community, in which case Ref #2 should never have been held.

2) For those who have come of voting age since Ref #2, they are effectively disenfranchised from a say on an issue that will impact them more than any other demographic.

3) Not that I necessarily agree with this, but #3 is that there should be some weighting for the impacts of Brexit on different generations.  Normal elections are for a 5 year period, with the assumption most generations are roughly impacted equally over that period. This was a vote on something that will have far bigger impacts on the young.  So there could be an argument that as they have more skin in the game, they should have a commensurate more skin in the vote.  

[Ser Hedge]

9 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

think the main incompetent officer was the original South Essex colonel, but he was only there because he had connections, and paid for his battalion out of his own pocket. And he got booted out pretty quick.

Not before losing the King's colours once and then turning tail and deserting in the next battle though. I do agree that it looks like Cornwell turned some characters into caricatures, but clearly given the class system and the ability to purchase commissions the parodies cannot have been completely unrealistic.

They do pop up quite regularly across the entire series. Lord Rossendale is actually not really one of them, he's a fundamentally decent, but weak personality being manipulated by an ambitious Jane. Along the lines of the original South Essex CO are the navy officer Bampfylde (a choice of name for which the author apologizes in a note added to later editions, as it seems there were real Bampfyldes that served with distinction) from Sharpe's siege, the nominal senior officer in the expedition to free hostages from a mountain redoubt in Spain  in Sharpe's Enemy and the CO in the story about the 'lost'  2nd battalion of the South Essex that Sharpe is trying to find in England (Sharpe's Regiment).

The TV series added a few territorial army (or was it a militia) types of the same ilk when Sharpe returns to England briefly before Waterloo (in the books he settles down to country life in Normandy with a French noblewoman fallen on hard times) to take a more direct aim at the class system. Throwing in a long lost half brother was very schmaltzy though.

I apologize for distracting everyone from Brexit , but some of these pompous and vacuous Brexiteers really are really bringing back these characters back to my mind. Not to mention those from P.G. Wodehouse.

[Mosi Mynn]

3 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

I apologize for distracting everyone from Brexit , 

Never apologise for that!  

 

 

I know this is an unpopular POV, but I'm just going to leave this here Democracy is overrated – let the Queen sort out Brexit

[Werthead]

15 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Surely him banging on about the TA all the time makes him Gareth Keenan.

Or Mike Watt.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Never apologise for that!  

 

 

I know this is an unpopular POV, but I'm just going to leave this here Democracy is overrated – let the Queen sort out Brexit

General note, how on earth did that reactionary hack writer Fleischhauer get to write an opinion piece and have it published by the bloody Guardian? His usual range of themes include conservatives good, gender confused metropolitan lefties with their queer indentities bad, oh, right, he also regularly whines about his failed marriage in his usual drivel.

[Mosi Mynn]

Any decision by the Prime Minister to accept a long extension to Article 50 is likely to be challenged in the UK courts.

This seems a bit crazy to me.  The EU are bending over backwards to grant longer thinking time.

[maarsen]

23 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Not before losing the King's colours once and then turning tail and deserting in the next battle though. I do agree that it looks like Cornwell turned some characters into caricatures, but clearly given the class system and the ability to purchase commissions the parodies cannot have been completely unrealistic.

They do pop up quite regularly across the entire series. Lord Rossendale is actually not really one of them, he's a fundamentally decent, but weak personality being manipulated by an ambitious Jane. Along the lines of the original South Essex CO are the navy officer Bampfylde (a choice of name for which the author apologizes in a note added to later editions, as it seems there were real Bampfyldes that served with distinction) from Sharpe's siege, the nominal senior officer in the expedition to free hostages from a mountain redoubt in Spain  in Sharpe's Enemy and the CO in the story about the 'lost'  2nd battalion of the South Essex that Sharpe is trying to find in England (Sharpe's Regiment).

The TV series added a few territorial army (or was it a militia) types of the same ilk when Sharpe returns to England briefly before Waterloo (in the books he settles down to country life in Normandy with a French noblewoman fallen on hard times) to take a more direct aim at the class system. Throwing in a long lost half brother was very schmaltzy though.

I apologize for distracting everyone from Brexit , but some of these pompous and vacuous Brexiteers really are really bringing back these characters back to my mind. Not to mention those from P.G. Wodehouse.

Or from Monty Python, particularly the Upper Class Twit of the Year. 

[Mosi Mynn]

UK set to lose European commissioner role over Brexit delay

The EU (and especially France in this particular instance)) are incredibly quick to propose ideas and then come up with ways to carry them out.  It just shows up so starkly how unified they are, and how willing they are to compromise to reach their goals, compared to how the UK ... isn't.

[Which Tyler]

PMQ. Asked specifically about the full week of negotiations... "My position has not changed"