Jump to content
Panos Targaryen

Why did the project fail?

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Thorbearius said:

I think this is the biggest problem. They stopped telling the story dynamically and tried to cut too many corners. It feels like they just want to move on to other things and now I'm kind of dreading what they will do to Star Wars...

 

It's not going to be good..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would anyone cut corners on their own story?

It's mindblowing. No one who cares about the story they are telling/adapting and no one who cares about the work they do does that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why would anyone cut corners on their own story?

It's mindblowing. No one who cares about the story they are telling/adapting and no one who cares about the work they do does that.

The show has continued to gain in popularity even as it fell in quality, so if you were a rich, arrogant, showrunner, it would be easily to convince yourself that the sleight of hand spectacle you increasingly relied on---which was accompanied by increasing popularity and still overwhelmingly positive critical reviews---would continue to carry you through even as you cut more and more corners, and since the public and critics overlooked major plot holes since season 4, that would make you bolder and bolder, as it did, until the plot holes were gigantic canyons...until finally, one cut corner too far and house of cards falls down. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was just complex material for these two hacks. They weren't up to the material, and they weren't up to the job.

Combined with their intention to actually do what they want - i.e. pandering to the actors rather than telling a story - and you get what we have.

I mean, if you cut it down, if you think back to the time when people were looking forward to the prospect of an adaptation, then it was always obvious that there was very little adaptation necessary. George's dialogue can be used, for the most part, as it is in the books. The characterization and story and the subtle elements are a gift to any screenwriter, as are the personal arcs and back story of all the character.

And knowing the story of the first 4-5 books when such a show started one could also get beyond the POV frame of the novels and deepen and expand on the story by including additional scenes featuring crucial characters that could give more clues, explore some things some more, tease at others, etc.

That could have been great, and anybody actually caring to tell George's story - or do the material justice - would have done so. But that was never the intention of these two guys. They wanted to show off actors, they never understood that actors are people who are supposed to play roles, not that the roles and the story follow the actors.

These people had never a clear view what those characters and what the story as such was about. It was only good while it was drawing most of its dialogue and plot from George - which was, for the most part, the case until the end of season 4 (although that was was already pretty far removed), and that's what made all this interesting. It was to see what all those young people were doing, how all the various plot lines would eventually converge. And since this is really a rather complex story one can see the shortcomings in how they continued the story after they run out of actual material to adapt. There were no character arcs from that point, no consistent plot development, no writing implying that this is a consistent world with consistently written characters who are supposed to behave like real people. None of that.

It was basically some sort of clichéd C movie action nonsense (people traveling quickly without the means, people knowing stuff they shouldn't know, people doing stuff or surviving stuff they shouldn't, etc.). People did what the script demanded without ever understanding what they were about or what was the point. There were the big battles, etc. each seasons and most of the other scenes were just filler, bad jokes, self-referencing, etc. There is barely any plot in season 5-8. And what's there is most drawn from sample chapters of TWoW (the dreadfully long play scenes in Braavos) or even AFfC material that's later shoe-horned into seasons that should have adapted TWoW (the Riverrun stuff).

This is all the evidence we need that these people neither could do the material justice nor did they intend to do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In the first season, they followed the original material extremely faithfully. In the second season, they dared to do a single major change: Dany's adventures at Qarth. The result was easily the worst part of the season, but that didn't rise any red flag. The more commercial success the show had, the more they were convinced that they were superb writers. And once they ran out of source material, the free fall started.

Actually, they made other changes in season 2 that should have raised red flags, but didn't.  The worst was Talisa,  Robb marrying a foreign (anachronistic) nurse never made a bit of sense.  It made him a self-centered asshole screwing over the Freys for his own happiness, instead of an inexperienced kid trying to do the right thing by someone he had dishonored.

I've gotten the impression that the showrunners really like the Lannisters and really don't like the Starks.  So they whitewashed the Lannisters and made the Starks bad, or stupid, or both.  Which then causes problems later because GRRM's ending isn't likely to reflect that.

Another problem is that the later seasons became more and more about spectacle and badassery and less about coherent storytelling.

Edited by Nevets

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Pretty simple, doesn't take much explaining.

D&D just didn't understand the series and didn't care for it when it was explained. Like Mace on having a grandson king they got off on the idea of being responsible for shocking everyone with the Red Wedding. That was their attraction to doing the adaption, and after that they just wanted off the train as soon as could reasonably be done without jeopardising their careers and turning the internet against them.

Edited by chrisdaw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It was just complex material for these two hacks. They weren't up to the material, and they weren't up to the job.

Exactly, and GRRM should have seen it when he met Dumb&Dumber…

Attraction of money or a lack of judgment, IDK, but I blame him. SHAME! DING! SHAME! DONG!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exactly, and GRRM should have seen it when he met Dumb&Dumber…

Attraction of money or a lack of judgment, IDK, but I blame him. SHAME! DING! SHAME! DONG!

Well, he knew what he was doing, he used to work as a screenwriter himself. He said it then: They pay you a truckload of money and in return you hand over all control. They can do with your work whatever they want. He was lucky that at least the first seasons halfway followed the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one thing that people usually ignore that also ruined the show. 

The series was too influenced by social media. Like the backlash over Sansa's rape made them change how they portrayed women for the rest of the series and how they couldn t suffer certain abuses... We just have to look at how Yara was the best treated prisoner ever and how most women just became badasses that do no wrong... 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, divica said:

The series was too influenced by social media. Like the backlash over Sansa's rape made them change how they portrayed women for the rest of the series and how they couldn t suffer certain abuses... We just have to look at how Yara was the best treated prisoner ever and how most women just became badasses that do no wrong... 

To begin with Yara should have had her tongue cut (like they did to Yara's soldiers when they failed to protect Ellaria and Tyene). That's how Urine treats his prisoners and his crew.

If really they're influenced by social media, I would pay good money to see D&D's faces when the petition reaches 1 million signatures (almost 10% of the audience!).

Edited by Nowy Tends

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

To begin with Yara should have had her tongue cut (like they did to Yara's soldiers when they failed to protect Ellaria and Tyene). That's how Urine treats his prisoners and his crew.

If really they're influenced by social media, I would pay good money to see D&D's faces when the petition reaches 1 million signatures (almost 10% of the audience!).

We can see how the tone of the last seasons was different from the first ones... Simpathetic characters stopped suffering cruelties... And the bad things that happened were t on screen... 

We are talking about a show that had Danny raped, oberyn's head crushed, theon lost his junk, lady killed, whores tortured by joff... All this happened on screen... 

And I think the petion is reaching its limit... It should be over 1M by now... It is slowing down

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/16/2019 at 11:37 AM, The hairy bear said:

In the first season, they followed the original material extremely faithfully.

On an outward level, yes. And most of the characters there - especially those they had not yet cast for the pilot - were pretty much their book counterparts.

But there are very ugly internal diversions there. Catelyn and Cersei simply aren't the same characters, and Ned is this super fighter. Cersei also actually loved Robert once - which is a pointless change they later contradicted in their own show when they actually used the AFfC material that had Cersei have a crush on Rhaegar.

And we do know what caused such arbitrary changes - the way they saw the actors, for the most part. They had a certain image of Fairley and Headey based on their previous roles. They also allowed their favorite actors to influence creative decisions in that season (e.g. Jason Momoa getting the opportunity to show off that he is a great warrior and him later coming back for a pointless scene in season 2). A positive example of such actor intervention was apparently Harry Lloyd - who understood his character very well because he had read the books - getting his scene with Jorah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Nevets said:

Actually, they made other changes in season 2 that should have raised red flags, but didn't.  The worst was Talisa,  Robb marrying a foreign (anachronistic) nurse never made a bit of sense.  It made him a self-centered asshole screwing over the Freys for his own happiness, instead of an inexperienced kid trying to do the right thing by someone he had dishonored.

The love story part could have worked. But making her a foreign Volantene not-looking Valyrian from one of most powerful Old Blood families really shows how much they cared or understood the source material.

Along with the Qarth plot - which is really abysmally written and executed - and the nonsensical Jon-Ygritte chase scene Talisa is really the low point of season 2. Oh, and, of course, repetitive Tywin-Arya scenes doing nothing to continue their story, Littlefinger the non-character, etc.

In fact, the way they treated the superb action movie material of Jon and Qhorin - which could have been taken directly from the books with only minor cuts and, perhaps, some changes as to how many extras were with them - shows how incompetent they are. I mean, this chase scene, Qhorin's talk about the duty of a black brother, and the moral conflict of his last command to Jon is really a great story. Instead the show gave us pointless chase scenes and build-up for relationship that could and should have waited until season 3.

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I've gotten the impression that the showrunners really like the Lannisters and really don't like the Starks.  So they whitewashed the Lannisters and made the Starks bad, or stupid, or both.  Which then causes problems later because GRRM's ending isn't likely to reflect that.

I don't think this has anything to do with 'the Starks' or 'the Lannisters' but everything with the actors who played them. They like Dinklage, so he became no controversial character and eventually only Dinklage when they ran out of actual Tyrion material to play with. They liked Charles Dance, so Tywin became a pretty good guy, and they most definitely liked Lena Headey so she became whatever she played in the show (not Cersei, never Cersei). Jaime was pretty close to George's character - especially in season 3 - but they threw all that away in season 4.

This has nothing to do with creative decisions insofar as characters and plot and motivations are concerned, it is about the actors and how to get them on screen with those actors you want them to interact with.

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Exactly, and GRRM should have seen it when he met Dumb&Dumber…

Attraction of money or a lack of judgment, IDK, but I blame him. SHAME! DING! SHAME! DONG!

I actually pity George now. I hope - and I'm reasonably sure, considering his background - the money makes him happy but from an artistic viewpoint he really got fucked by that thing. They took great fantasy content and basically violated it, twisting it around so much that even people who know the series and the characters intimately can't really guess how much - if anything - of the events and plots and (non-existing) character development of the later series has anything to do with George's intentions.

 If I were him and dealing with the constant pressure to actually get my version of the story finished I very much doubt I could handle that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see two things that haven‘t been mentioned so far: 

The season-mode prolonged some storylines while it shortened others. Especially in the latter seasons, some characters drag their feet to be ready for the finale while other race along. Compare that to the (book placement) of the purple wedding in a second (or so?) episode.

The adaption rightfully adapted some things to modern sensitivities. As it is a TV show, that was a wise thing to do. While Talisa doesn‘t make sense in book, it did make sense to most of the viewers. It‘s romantic, it‘s badass, and that‘s enough. It‘s just different requirements.

But that was of course not everything, there‘s an interview with Nikolai on how he didn‘t understand how Jaime would stay for so long with Cersei and not leave her (or even discuss it) when she crowns herself after Tommen killed himself. The showrunners told him: just try it (and we need you there so Cerseis not all alone in her scenes). There wer just more important things for them than plot (and that is a valid choice even if I find it wrong myself).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2019 at 4:42 PM, Panos Targaryen said:

Sure, Game of Thrones became a cultural phenomenon, one of the most watched series of all time, it set a new bar for high budget Hollywood-like TV shows, made millions of dollars etc.

But as far as being a faithful adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire, successfully transferring the "soul/essence" of the series to the small screen, including as much of the books' plot as possible, respecting GRRM's themes, etc., I  think the consensus in this forum, and across the hardcore fanbase, especially the book readers, is that this failed utterly towards the end. This was, ultimately, not the proper and true adaptation of ASOIAF that the fans have wanted since 1996. Too many compromises were made. 

What do you guys think is the source of this? D&D being incompetent writers or bad project managers, the nature of ASOIAF's story itself making it almost possible to make a satisfying TV adaptation of it, not a high enough budget, or something else?

Btw, before anyone says it's because GRRM didn't finish the books in time: While definitely a factor, it could have been possible for GRRM to have more closely overseen the development of the show. It must have been something else imo.

No, I think that first of all the story misses a clear goal itself; is it the throne? Is it the wight walkers? Is just the political controversy that the hunt for power brings? 

Its very hard to fill satisfied by and end when there is no initial main quest. 

The story builds up but at some point even at the last season you expect that all these ends will serve a purspose. Then you discover there is no purpose. 

Fantasy elements such as the WW, the dragons, the 3yed Raven, which drew so many epic fantasy viewers in, are not treated with respect but become secondary background noise. 

Then there is  this pattern about power being corruptive that’s being repeating itself at the point it loses any strength as a message. Viewers don’t want to see another character failing because that’s done, that’s said, it has become the norm. They want something that can break this constantly repeating pattern but the script fails them. Once again the message remains stagnant and the same. 

Then the morality of all the characters is ambiguous, changing to what it is convenient for the script from time to time. So we feel insecure, we can’t trust them. We fail to sympathize with them because in some way they are not progressing and developing, they fall back. They resist to any true change unless it is for the worst. 

Other characters are downgraded in purpose so the viewers miss the existence of a main character they can root for. 

Then there is this concept of realism which is also very convenient served to solve the problems of the script and to stop viewers from questioning further. 

So when Bran falls from the tower, when Dany steps in the fire, when Jon is resurrected, when arya is saved by No one  and so forth, all the fantasy elements, that even exceed Disney, come forth to “rescue” the characters. 

But for a reason we shouldn’t expect the characters making any positive progression because that is realism? 

And where does realism fit when Jon is resurrected? Why people around him accept him as normal rather than a zombie that needs to be killed or a monster? Where is suddenly their realism? 

So double standards again conveniently used to served the plot.

What we are left with? 

Characters we can’t trust and can’t sympathize, fantasy elements degraded to background noise, soap opera plots which moves in circles, no main plot and direction. 

I actually think GOT has an identity crisis. What does it want to be? What does it want to say? Who are the main characters we are supposed to trust? Is it fantasy? Is it realism? Does it know what it wants to be? It hasn’t persuaded us that it wants to be something. A meaningful something. But it’s on the way to persuade us it can be a meaningless something. Just like most soap operas. Lots of characters, unresolved plots, suspense, drama, sex and oh yes realism. 

 

 

Edited by Nightwish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

D + D became despots.

They didn't listen to their advisors, they wrote their own scrips and where it really fell down, they directed and edited them as well. It is no accident that in both ep3 and ep5, there was nobody there to moderate their rule.

The whole thing became, in the end, an accidentally meta commentary on the power of power - to corrupt, to corrode and to ruin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A failure in what category? Financially and ratings? One must be a moron to think that. 

Telling a proper story up until the end? Yes, they failed miserably. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think fundamentally D&D neither understood/agreed with the themes of hte books, nor were talented enough writers to come up with a quality alternative, nor had the humility to recognize this fact and brought in other able writers to help them.  That's a perfect storm of qualities for failure.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×