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Nagini's Neville

What are some significant differences between Robb and Jon?

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Robb and Jon always sort of felt like the same person to me. Just like young versions of Ned. Before you get mad at me, I know it's probably a very subjective feeling. I fully acknowledge, that I'm not an expert, when it comes to Robb and Jon. I haven't spent that much time analyzing their characters/personalities yet. And it's not that easy for me to relate to them. But I'm looking forward to  maybe change that. I'm currently on a reread and I'm trying to understand them better! Traits that stuck out to me so far about Jon are that he is observant and in his head more than Robb in the beginning of the story. But I guess, that could also be because of their different upbringings/status and their roles in WF.

Some questions:

What are some significant differences between Robb and Jon? In which situations, you think, Jon would have acted/reacted differently than Robb, if he'd been in the same situation and vice versa? (Maybe Red Wedding and also Jeyne)

In which situations would they have acted definitely the same? What makes both of them different from Ned? ( Imo Robb might be more revenge-driven/emotional and Jon is more suspicious )

If Robb or Jon are your favorite characters, why? Which traits, behavior, situations makes you like them so much? ( please, don't shy away from getting detailed :))

For the men: Can you relate to Jon and Robb?(Why?) From your experience do you think they are accurate/realistic depictions of boys/ men their age? Or does their appeal lie more in, that one would aspire to be like them, since they are so honorable?  (Robb feels more realistic to me, because he makes some serious "teenage boy" mistakes, while Jon always felt a bit to much Gary Stu for me) (For the women, if you can relate to Jon and Robb, please answer as well :) )

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
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Jon is probably one of my favorites. I think one difference between the two is that, like you mentioned, Jon is more suspicious. 

Because of this I think Jon may have come out on the winning side of the Red Wedding either because he wouldn't have slipped up with Jeyne or because he would have been more suspicious of Walder & Co. 

Jon is dark & brooding & even though there is a lot of controversy over Jon breaking or not breaking his NW vows I think he is very duty driven. Because of this I think he probably would have punished Catelyn much harsher than Robb did even if it were his mother. 

I also think Jon is more in touch with his intuitive side which is why he has wolf dreams. In all fairness though Robb may have had them also & we just never heard about them. 

Being a bastard & growing up as one has given him a different outlook than Robb in that he is able to judge people for who they are & not what they are. He doesn't place as value in being a Lord or a Knight, as Robb would. 

I think they are both emotionally motivated but Jon fights that side of him more than Robb & Robb is more impulsive. 

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. 

Nice topic 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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  1. Robb is nice looking.  Jon has the weird long face of the Starks.
  2. Robb is even tempered for a Stark.  Jon has the volatile and erratic temper of Lyanna and Brandon. 
  3. Both men betrayed their allies/group/organization/job. 
  4. They both have lots of hubris.
  5. Hypocrites, both of them. 

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3 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:
  •  Robb is even tempered for a Stark.  Jon has the volatile and erratic temper of Lyanna and Brandon. 

Nah, not only because we don't know those two but because Jon is neither erratic nor volatile, being angry twice is not that.

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Robb is a tactician. Jon is a strategist.

Robb is an extrovert. Jon is an introvert. 

Robb is a parallel to Dareon. Jon is, if we look at ADWD, a parallel to Dareon II. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Rob is his father's son. Jon is somewhat more pragmatic

 

14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb is more charismatic, Jon is more brooding.

Robb is more emotional, Jon matured more in this aspect.

Jon is more selfaware, Robb is too optimistic.

Jon reads people better, Robb is more impulsive.

He starts off as a brooder but he's not. He makes friends in the NW very easily

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Robb is more stupid than Jon. And more self-involved. He essentially becomes the king he worshipped as a boy - Daeron I. And like him he rose too high and then burned.

Jon is more brooding and wallowing in self-pity to the point that it is painful to read (his original inability to understand or connect with his peers at Castle Black is really striking).

Jon didn't have to deal with the pressure Robb had to live through his entire life, especially after his father and mother both leave. His greatest moments are when he takes charge at Winterfell. But he has too shoulder too much to early and has too much success too early. That destroys him.

Jon's basic flaw is that he never wanted to join the NW. Not truly. He wanted to make a name for himself. He wanted to rise as high as Robb and thought (wrongly) he could do that at the Wall. He could not. And that's why he failed. He should have never taken the black because he lacks the strength of character to actually keep his vows. If he had never left Winterfell the entire war would have gone different and Robb wouldn't have made many of his mistakes - because Jon would have helped him to make the right decision more often than not.

Overall, Jon is the smarter one, but that really doesn't show in ADwD where Jon is essentially as stupid or, perhaps, even stupider than Robb in ASoS. His political acumen is good enough to see the overall picture, but he cannot really keep his own house in order on the micro level. It is not enough to execute some guy, you actually have to create you own party and you cannot risk losing contact with the common man or no longer know what their grievances are. The NW is not a large institutions, it is not that difficult to surround yourself with men who would die protecting you rather than murder your - or build a group of agents and spies who would report any talk of treason to you.

Jon is a huge letdown in this department, which is ever more striking considering he should have known. He knows about the Red Wedding, he knows about Joffrey's murder, he knows about Renly's murder. He knows that you are dead if you show the slightest weakness - and he still sends away essentially most of the men we have good reason to believe are loyal to him.

I like my heroes smart. Which is why my favorite POV chapters are actually pre-depression Tyrion's (meaning mostly AGoT-ACoK material). The man simply has a good perception and rarely misses things - as do AFfC/ADwD Aryan and Sansa.

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On 10/31/2019 at 9:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon is probably one of my favorites. I think one difference between the two is that, like you mentioned, Jon is more suspicious. 

Because of this I think Jon may have come out on the winning side of the Red Wedding either because he wouldn't have slipped up with Jeyne or because he would have been more suspicious of Walder & Co. 

Jon is dark & brooding & even though there is a lot of controversy over Jon breaking or not breaking his NW vows I think he is very duty driven. Because of this I think he probably would have punished Catelyn much harsher than Robb did even if it were his mother. 

I also think Jon is more in touch with his intuitive side which is why he has wolf dreams. In all fairness though Robb may have had them also & we just never heard about them. 

Being a bastard & growing up as one has given him a different outlook than Robb in that he is able to judge people for who they are & not what they are. He doesn't place as value in being a Lord or a Knight, as Robb would. 

I think they are both emotionally motivated but Jon fights that side of him more than Robb & Robb is more impulsive. 

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. 

Nice topic 

I agree with everything you said except the part about Jeyne, I think he too would have been caught in the same situation, after all, he did go native with Ygritte, and I think that similarality in their arcs was an intentional one by George.

 

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robb is more stupid than Jon. And more self-involved. He essentially becomes the king he worshipped as a boy - Daeron I. And like him he rose too high and then burned.

 

I don't see Robb as more stupid than Jon. Robb is put in a situation that he is not ready yet with Catelyn ignoring everything in her grieve, Robb is 14 when he is lord and even then he was capable of bend the will of all his bannerman in the feast when they tested him. Jon had a little more time before rising to command, he had Mormont, Aemon and Tyrion to advice him on his first steps, and realize his position.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's basic flaw is that he never wanted to join the NW. Not truly. He wanted to make a name for himself. He wanted to rise as high as Robb and thought (wrongly) he could do that at the Wall. He could not. And that's why he failed. He should have never taken the black because he lacks the strength of character to actually keep his vows. If he had never left Winterfell the entire war would have gone different and Robb wouldn't have made many of his mistakes - because Jon would have helped him to make the right decision more often than not.

 

I very much agree here.

Robb would probably put Jon in charge of his infantry instead of Roose and this would change everything since I doubt that Jon would throw away the battle as Bolton did.

But this is the tragedy of Catelyn, she set it up the events that ended her family with the kidnaping of Tyrion, ignoring Ned's orders and putting all the weight on Robb too early. For petty reasons, and not caring about the bound between Robb and Jon, she and forced the later to the wall before it was the right time as Benjen and Ned tell.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't see Robb as more stupid than Jon. Robb is put in a situation that he is not ready yet with Catelyn ignoring everything in her grieve, Robb is 14 when he is lord and even then he was capable of bend the will of all his bannerman in the feast when they tested him. Jon had a little more time before rising to command, he had Mormont, Aemon and Tyrion to advice him on his first steps, and realize his position.

I very much agree here.

Robb would probably put Jon in charge of his infantry instead of Roose and this would change everything since I doubt that Jon would throw away the battle as Bolton did.

But this is the tragedy of Catelyn, she set it up the events that ended her family with the kidnaping of Tyrion, ignoring Ned's orders and putting all the weight on Robb too early. For petty reasons, and not caring about the bound between Robb and Jon, she and forced the later to the wall before it was the right time as Benjen and Ned tell.

Jon would never have been given command over Northern lords. Half of them would have rebelled against Robb if they had to take orders from a teenage bastard, even if he was the perceived son of Ned Stark.

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Both have the wolf-blood and that is what made them inconsistent.  But Robb's nature was tempered by the Tully blood.  He can control his emotions a little bit better, except when it really counted the most.  Jon is an angry young man with a big chip on his shoulders.  He acts on his emotions. 

Vengeful creatures the both of them.  Full of arrogance they were.  And thankfully both are dead. 

Both of these men are oathbreakers.  The Starks like to think of themselves as an honorable family.  That's not true.  It is their inability to conquer their desires and their emotions that have caused a lot of the problems for Westeros.  Westeros would have been so much better off if Aegon the Conqueror had killed the Starks and leveled Winterfell.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't see Robb as more stupid than Jon. Robb is put in a situation that he is not ready yet with Catelyn ignoring everything in her grieve, Robb is 14 when he is lord and even then he was capable of bend the will of all his bannerman in the feast when they tested him. Jon had a little more time before rising to command, he had Mormont, Aemon and Tyrion to advice him on his first steps, and realize his position.

I could have also phrased it as Jon is more perceptive and smarter than Jon. That's something that's already established in the very first Bran chapter. Jon sees more things, he guesses things correctly, and he finds solutions to problems faster than others.

Physically he is not as strong as Robb, though.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb would probably put Jon in charge of his infantry instead of Roose and this would change everything since I doubt that Jon would throw away the battle as Bolton did.

Most definitely not, as has already been said. That would have never worked. Robb's advantage in Jon being there would have had multiple effects. He would have given his input on the Bran attempt, meaning that, perhaps, Cat wouldn't have been sent but Jon instead - which would have completely changed the course of the story.

If not, then we would have had Jon with Robb when he called his banners. If Jon hadn't went to war with Robb but stayed behind he would have greatly affected the Winterfell story line, possibly preventing Theon taking the castle. His presence could perhaps also have helped to convince Robb that the real danger was in the north.

If he had gone to war with Robb I don't see Robb sending Theon as an envoy to the Iron Islands, meaning no disastrous loss of Winterfell. I see no King in the North nonsense, and I definitely don't see Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling under any circumstances (assuming Jon is with Robb if they ever take the Crag in this scenario).

Things might still go wrong for the Starks in the end, but there won't be a Red Wedding then.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

But this is the tragedy of Catelyn, she set it up the events that ended her family with the kidnaping of Tyrion, ignoring Ned's orders and putting all the weight on Robb too early. For petty reasons, and not caring about the bound between Robb and Jon, she and forced the later to the wall before it was the right time as Benjen and Ned tell.

Jon dug this grave for himself. He wanted to go to the Wall - and that's why he goes. Cat only says she is not going to suffer him at Winterfell under her watch. Which is her call. Jon could have gone to some other Northern castle or he could have insisted his father take him to court with him. In fact, that could also have greatly helped Ned, also affecting the story because Jon may have helped them to draw other conclusions about Littlefinger's dagger story. He could have helped to get the girls out of the castle at the right time, or he could have accompanied Catelyn and Rodrik back to Winterfell after their visit, possibly influencing the Tyrion thing.

Which was not actually a mistake. If Tyrion was involved in the attempts on Bran and/or behind Jon Arryn's murder then he knew from the moment he recognized Catelyn that she and the Starks were on to them - meaning they would have lost the only real advantage they had. Allowing Tyrion to go could very well mean Ned is killed a couple of days after Tyrion's return to court.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He would have given his input on the Bran attempt, meaning that, perhaps, Cat wouldn't have been sent but Jon instead - which would have completely changed the course of the story.

 

I don't think this would change, Catelyn wanted someone more mature at KL, so she would still go with Rodrik.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If not, then we would have had Jon with Robb when he called his banners. If Jon hadn't went to war with Robb but stayed behind he would have greatly affected the Winterfell story line, possibly preventing Theon taking the castle. His presence could perhaps also have helped to convince Robb that the real danger was in the north.

 If he had gone to war with Robb I don't see Robb sending Theon as an envoy to the Iron Islands, meaning no disastrous loss of Winterfell. I see no King in the North nonsense, and I definitely don't see Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling under any circumstances (assuming Jon is with Robb if they ever take the Crag in this scenario).

 Things might still go wrong for the Starks in the end, but there won't be a Red Wedding then

Jon would probably go with Robb, but I could see him being the "Stark at winterfell" but not very likely

about Theon, even Cat could not stoped him from sending Theon, so I do not belive Jon could. The Westerling scenario I agree.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 Jon dug this grave for himself. He wanted to go to the Wall - and that's why he goes. Cat only says she is not going to suffer him at Winterfell under her watch. Which is her call. Jon could have gone to some other Northern castle or he could have insisted his father take him to court with him. In fact, that could also have greatly helped Ned, also affecting the story because Jon may have helped them to draw other conclusions about Littlefinger's dagger story. He could have helped to get the girls out of the castle at the right time, or he could have accompanied Catelyn and Rodrik back to Winterfell after their visit, possibly influencing the Tyrion thing.

 

Jon wanted, sure, but Benjen and Ned were oposed to the idea, and they were his guardian, without Eddard permission Jon would stay.

Cat was being really unreasonable with the issue. Jon barely interacted with her, Winterfell is a big castle and she could ignore him like she did with all her obligations later on, Jon was Robb's best friend and Robb was the acting lord that need all the support and she was removing it. without giving him any support herself, Bran was still in coma and she wouldn't even let Jon stay close to him.

Sure Jon could go to be fostered at some bannerman castle, but Robb needed him.

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Jon would never have been given command over Northern lords. Half of them would have rebelled against Robb if they had to take orders from a teenage bastard, even if he was the perceived son of Ned Stark.

At the very least he could stop Robb for putting Roose in command.

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Jon would never have been given command over Northern lords. Half of them would have rebelled against Robb if they had to take orders from a teenage bastard, even if he was the perceived son of Ned Stark.

I don't think this is true at all. Because the bastard point of view we get is Jon, who spent his whole life being put down for it by Catelyn, I think the readers have a harsher opinion of it then the world itself implies.  Stannis names a bastard in charge of Dragonstone when he leaves ( Rolland Storm ) and we have seen them sit on the small council. We have examples of them being well liked and respected rather consistently. Even in the north as far back as the king who knelt there was his bastard brother giving him his council. Notable for the plan of sneaking in the darkness and killing the dragons.

For Jon specifically we have seen that the north views him as the "Son of eddard stark" with Stannis, alys karstark, and the mountain clans among others. I think the bigger problem would be Jon's age not his status as a bastard half-brother. Catelyn, too, might have been an issue but if I recall Robb ignores her most of the time during the war.

Quote

What are some significant differences between Robb and Jon? In which situations, you think, Jon would have acted/reacted differently than Robb, if he'd been in the same situation and vice versa? (Maybe Red Wedding and also Jeyne)

It's worth remembering that Robb had actual training by Ned's side as his heir well Jon tries to act like he thinks Ned would and so makes himself distant and "above" even his friends once elected as Lord Commander. It's significant because for all Robbs mistakes he does know how to lead. Jon gets power and makes one mistake after another not because he doesn't see the problems but because he thinks people would act like he did at Winterfell and remember he is their lord. Robb knows this is nonsense. By end end of ADWD Jon is sick of explaining any of his actions. Robb, by the end of his arc, is trying to fix  situation he knew full well would happen once he married Jeyne. He married out of honor, but Jon wouldn't have slept with Jeyne at all.

Edited by DarkLord

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22 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

By end end of ADWD Jon is sick of explaining any of his actions. Robb, by the end of his arc, is trying to fix  situation he knew full well would happen once he married Jeyne. He married out of honor, but Jon wouldn't have slept with Jeyne at all.

I kinda agree with that, I always had the impression, that Jon only slept with Ygritte, because he really didn't have a choice. At least we can't say for sure, what he would have done, if he had a choice, because he really didn't have one.

So maybe he wouldn't have slept with Jeyne either. 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

At the very least he could stop Robb for putting Roose in command.

Roose had not done anything to deserve suspicion.  Jon is not really smart.  If Robb had not figured Roose out then Jon would not have. 

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

I kinda agree with that, I always had the impression, that Jon only slept with Ygritte, because he really didn't have a choice. At least we can't say for sure, what he would have done, if he had a choice, because he really didn't have one.

So maybe he wouldn't have slept with Jeyne either. 

Jon had a choice.  He could claim being gay.  The wildlings would buy that because a man who admits to being gay can't be lying (in their minds).

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