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Alyn Oakenfist

Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

How much credence do you guys give to Arya's show ending? I thought it was BS at first but I read some stuff about the water themes in Arya's arc that made me think otherwise. I don't think she'd be all alone, though. Maybe Gendry will tag along. 

In general I think the only things from the show that are set in stone are Hold the Door, Shireen burning, Jon/Dany romance, KL burning, Dany dying, and King Bran. 

Pleeeeeaaaaasseeeeeeee, absolutely no talk of the abomination here! :eek:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pleeeeeaaaaasseeeeeeee, absolutely no talk of the abomination here! :eek:

 

Sorry about that, I have edited my post. :blush:

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3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Not a psychologist. Should ask Ramsay. But I think there are things about manipulating people, especially young children.

Yeah but we have to remember while Jaime was a young child, so was Cersei. 

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes, pushing Bran was a violation of the Guest Right. I don't remember everything he did. But most were no worse than killing a ward if the father breaks his oath.

I don't think guest right works that way. At least we don't hear of it working that way that I'm aware of but maybe. 

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Another one of my "unconventional".

Yeah mine too.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Oaths and honor are bad more often than not. You swear to something, believing it's something grand. And then you discover you've been cheated. You served the father who was OK, but the son is mad, or a monster. Or you discover the goal of your master is not yours. And because you or your ancestors bent the knee to save their skin and their people, you have to obey monsters

Yeah I agree and to say keeping your oath/vow above all else is the right or correct thing to do is a very narrow-minded opinion IMO.

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Oath = Slavery. Only slaves are bound for life and their children too.

Or like Barristan, it gives you excuse to stand still while a man abuse his wife. Volunteer to be Aerys' slave.

Jaime was one of the few who questioned it. He forsworn his honor to save innocents.

Cat was one of the few to had it right with Brienne:

I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new.
...
When the time comes, I will not hold you back.

:agree:

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, you're right. maybe some day I will. rn I'm a bit to lazy+ already said everything I've got. And we already had two threads lately about the age issue, without a lot of progress being made in gaining clarity. "One team" believed, when you had your period, you are perceived as a woman basically in general. the other thought that was still too young, if the girl was 12/13 even in universe. I agree with the later since it usually was in the MA as well.

I can only speak for myself but as one of the "other team" my stance was not that this is common or that it happens the majority of the time, but that in universe being flowered is perceived as being a maid or maiden & thus fit for marriage. As evidenced by the GRRM quote in the other thread & the actions in universe. Boiled down my stance is & was: it happens, while not the 'norm' it isn't rare, & it is perceived as acceptable in universe. 

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22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. It is just metal & it is just a tree but then it is so much more also. The north will crucify him if he burns that tree.

Ice is more then metal, sure. Kinda like how Arya thinks of Needle. I cant even imagine how Catelyn thought about Half an Ice while Briennes calling it Oathkeeper. But neither of those swords can bring back Ned or Robb, as far as tragedies in the book go, its just an object. 

The tree is like some streaming channel that Brans got or something like that, so its more then an object, i guess. 

Idk, I don't think GRRM would burn the heartree but Stannis probably would so I guess GRRM might lol. Its either that or Ramsay wins, which I dont actually have a problem with either lol

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Haha! A little maybe. Sometimes I like wack.

Lol, I like Sam, hes kinda wack lol, although, Slayer.

Like I don't dislike anything asoiaf, shits where its supposed to be (not like how some fans view Darkstar, but not me, I think hes cool lol. Thats probably another unconventional opinion lol). I dont think Eddards written badly or anything like that, in fact hes really good. And when Bran sees him in the past I get goosebumps, he is the Ned after all

But hes such a judgmental hypocritical asshole, who gets handed the world multiple times and fumbles it immediately. 

He failed Westeros, failed his kids who now live in ridiculous conditions. I mean, Robb failed too, and he was an asshole. But not judgmental or a hypocrite lol

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ice is more then metal, sure. Kinda like how Arya thinks of Needle. I cant even imagine how Catelyn thought about Half an Ice while Briennes calling it Oathkeeper. But neither of those swords can bring back Ned or Robb, as far as tragedies in the book go, its just an object

Yep. LSH needs put out if her misery but after what she has suffered I can understand her reaction to Brienne walking around with half of Ice, named oathkeeper, plus an official document in her pocket carrying the crowns emblem. 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The tree is like some streaming channel that Brans got or something like that, so its more then an object, i guess. 

Yeah for sure. 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, I don't think GRRM would burn the heartree but Stannis probably would so I guess GRRM might lol. Its either that or Ramsay wins, which I dont actually have a problem with either lol

Haha right? I never put anything past the George. 

I think there is a possibility that Stannis wins but doesn't get a chance to burn the tree before he is replaced or possibly being talked out of it. I'm ok with Ramsay winning that battle but there had better be some in universe karmic justice coming his way eventually or I'll cry lol 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, I like Sam, hes kinda wack lol, although, Slayer

Yeah me too. The Slayer is great. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like I don't dislike anything asoiaf, shits where its supposed to be (not like how some fans view Darkstar, but not me, I think hes cool lol. Thats probably another unconventional opinion lol). I dont think Eddards written badly or anything like that, in fact hes really good. And when Bran sees him in the past I get goosebumps, he is the Ned after all

Yeah, I can get behind this. I don't think Dark Star is that cool but there really isn't a character I don't like. 

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But hes such a judgmental hypocritical asshole, who gets handed the world multiple times and fumbles it immediately

Ahh ikr! Damn it Ned! Intent matters to me though & he did want & try to do good things. 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He failed Westeros, failed his kids who now live in ridiculous conditions. I mean, Robb failed too, and he was an asshole. But not judgmental or a hypocrite lol

Right well Robb was also barely a man grown so he gets some slack from me for his mistakes. Ned certainly set the kids up for failure but he didn't mean it to be that way. 

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39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yep. LSH needs put out if her misery but after what she has suffered I can understand her reaction to Brienne walking around with half of Ice, named oathkeeper, plus an official document in her pocket carrying the crowns emblem. 

Walking around with the Imps squire lol.

Id be pretty stoked if Cat lives, I mean no one lives forever (maybe? Lol) but i dont really want her to get murdered. Something happy would he nice, looking upon Bran or some shit.

But that's probably not happening. I just dont want one of her kids doing it, thats Tyrion territory lol

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think there is a possibility that Stannis wins but doesn't get a chance to burn the tree before he is replaced or possibly being talked out of it. I'm ok with Ramsay winning that battle but there had better be some in universe karmic justice coming his way eventually or I'll cry lol 

 

Yea, anything's possible. Except for Ramsay winning at the end of the series

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I can get behind this. I don't think Dark Star is that cool but there really isn't a character I don't like. 

Hes type cheese. But, I like cheese lol.

I also dont care for Renly, Doran, Griff, Alliser. Uh, Alliser is such a dick lol. Pycelle too I didnt like. Even though hes not a jerk like everyone else. 

I dont like people who think their shit doesnt stink, like they know the game their in and know the consequences of them but then look upon others with revulsion. 

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ahh ikr! Damn it Ned! Intent matters to me though & he did want & try to do good things. 

He raised the dragonspawn instead of giving him to Robert, so that's good lol. And he didnt attach his name to the assassination of pregnant Dany, so thats not bad?

He wanted vengeance for his father and later justice for his second father, that's good in a certain way you look at it, but not so good in others.

Like whatd Ned want to do thats good? Repopulate the gift? I guess thats good for the wildling raiders lol

He wanted other people to do good things really, thats why he gave the throne to Robert and later Stannis, unfortunately theyre not good people

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right well Robb was also barely a man grown so he gets some slack from me for his mistakes. 

I dont even consider Robbs mistakes that crucial. Fuck Walders daughters feelings lol. 

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ned certainly set the kids up for failure but he didn't mean it to be that way. 

He raises Robb to be a warrior and then is surprised he called the banners. And the girls shoulda been on a boat up north

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Posted (edited)

The fandom is quite evenly divided here.  Some of the characters have a lot of loyal fans and we know already where the regulars here are on that point.  I don't think my opinions are unconventional.  It may be more fair to say these are topics which generate a lot of disagreements.  

Daenerys Targaryen, her dragons, and her followers are the protagonists of the series.  They battle slavers for now.  Slavery is an evil perpetuated by men against other men.  There are also existential threats for her to fight later on.  I agree with @James Fenimore Cooper XXII opinion, she is Azor Ahai.  All of the leading characters are grey because George likes them that way.  But nothing says a grey character cannot be the top protagonists.  I do not believe she can stop or shorten the winter.  But she can prevent the Others from completely wiping away all of the living from the face of the planet.  Slavery will not be stopped without violence and some of the fans will criticize the method employed to beat the slave masters.  I am looking forward to the debates in advance.  We will be debating these decisions until the last book is published.  I love the character of Dany.

Many more of House Frey will fall to Nymeria's pack.  The wolf's mental state is contaminated with Arya's madness.  The wolf pack will continue to attack people without reason.  Mostly innocent people will die.  This is the madness and wastefulness of revenge.  The pack's path of destruction will terrorize the river lands until Walder's hunters can track them down and kill Nymeria.  

I would love an opportunity for Jorah and Tyrion to redeem themselves in Dany's service.  They both have a lot to atone for.  What better way to earn forgiveness than helping Dany end slavery and reclaim her kingdom from the Lannisters.  I don't believe George has the fortitude to kill Tyrion.  I can only hope the dwarf will serve Dany loyally and aid her in defeating his brother and sister.  

I am pretty sure of Jon coming back as a wight.  I don't think it will matter if it's Mel or the Others who bring him back.  His last thoughts are about Arya and sticking his Brothers with a blade.  He will come back a frozen madman whose objective will be revenge.  And getting Arya from Winterfell.  His devotion to Arya will once again cause him to take betrayal to a whole other level.  He will join the Others in the attack on Winterfell and betray the north.  He will make what the Night's King did seem like a misdemeanor because his betrayal will be extreme.  This is another character we will be debating long into the months following the release of Winds.  I'm not a fan of Jon's and this is another debate to look forward to.  

Winter is supposed to last a generation.  Barristan will not live through the long night.  He doesn't have enough years left.  Walder too will die under darkness.  Missandei will be a woman grown.  Penny still won't have grown an inch because she's a dwarf!!!!  And Samwell will get skinny and not by choice.  Food shortage and all.  

Rickon will grow into a man and lead wildlings to take back Winterfell from Ramsay.  Jon, Arya, and Bran will be wolves by then.  I suppose Jojen's prophecy comes true in some fashion.  The wolves will come again.  Literally.  A Stark will rule Winterfell again and become king of winter.  There will be no one to stop him.  Most everybody in the north, south, everywhere will be dead.  Bran will have the power to move back and forth because his physical body will not die.  He's root boy.  

The Dothraki will fall in line and give up their role in the slave trade.  Some of the resistant khals may split away and take their khalasars but they will be a small percentage of the total Dothraki.  So the prophecy of the Stallion Who Mounts the World will be fulfilled in this fashion.  She will rule the khalasars and do what the red priests believes she will do, remake Essos into a better world.  

We will not see a whole Westeros during the remaining books.  The long night will last years and the book will end before the return of the long summer.  

I don't really care what happens to Sam, Brienne, and Sansa.  Sam is another character where George may not have the willpower to kill because they are alike.  Sam is George in the story.  

Edited by Sire de Maletroit

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9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, but he has also called Danys and Drogos WN romantic. When I read the text I get the feeling he hasn't really made up his mind yet what message he wants to get across. Because relationships like that also have psychological consequences for the kids, but he glosses over that completely and on the contrary IMO did sexualize Drogo's and Dany's relationship and Dany herself since AGOT. 

 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's fine for me, but GRRM has always justified this portrayal of those things like child marriages, 13 year olds having sex and sexual violence with realism.

Also sorry for derailing the thread!

 

IMHO, the abuse Dany suffered did have big psychological consequences.  It comes through in her endless self-criticism, bordering on self-loathing.  At some level, she does view herself as "murderer, betrayer, whore."

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30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

IMHO, the abuse Dany suffered did have big psychological consequences.  It comes through in her endless self-criticism, bordering on self-loathing.  At some level, she does view herself as "murderer, betrayer, whore."

Yes, I'm not saying the effects of a life time of abuse are not there at all, otherwise she would be a really badly written character, but it's still nowhere close to realistic. 

Yes she has these moments of self-doubt and self-hate, but all in all she is extremely confident and has no problem at all feeling justified to step into the role of a ruler. So her self-esteem in general is actually pretty high for a girl her age, especially if you compare her to a character like Sansa.

There are just specific psychological symptoms, that most victims of such extreme sexual abuse in childhood suffer from. Symptoms you would have to battle and deal with everyday. IMO if you chose to write about such a sensitive topics in the name of realism, you've got to represent those victims and their reality the right way.

Just watch a docu about the effects of child marriages for example.

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More unconventional opinions.

12.  Ramsay wrote the Pink Letter.  This somehow seems a minority opinion.

13.  Arya and Gendry would make a horrible couple.  Other than a few months in the RL, they have nothing in common.

15.  Sansa and Sandor is a bad match as well.  Same reasons plus the age difference.

16.  Jaime dies early in Winds.  We are overdue for a surprise death, and if he isn't the valonqar, there isn't anything he is absolutely necessary for.

 

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

13.  Arya and Gendry would make a horrible couple.  Other than a few months in the RL, they have nothing in common.

15.  Sansa and Sandor is a bad match as well.  Same reasons plus the age difference.

But Tyrion and Sansa isn't? ;)

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9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But Tyrion and Sansa isn't? ;)

Ha, you took the words right out of my mouth. Sandor is maybe 2 yrs older than Tyrion iirc. So, same difference, right?

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11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah but we have to remember while Jaime was a young child, so was Cersei.

Yes. Most people in GRRM story are not really bad. They turn bad because something happens to them. While other resist hardship. But I believe Cersei was born bad. Like a few others, Ramsay, Walder Frey ... in a weaker way. She was dominative, alpha Jaime was shaped in the underdog, the subservient. Strong only with his sword. Jaime was loving his sister, loving his little brother, despite his sister and father. Jaime is vulnerable to those he loves. I like him for that. And for "fuck my honor".

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On 4/14/2020 at 6:21 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So what are some of your opinions that don't really match with the rest of the fandom? For example mine would be the fact that I really don't like Catelyn, and find her really annoying and distant to everybody else. She tries to play the mother on everybody, and I mean everybody, be it Robb, Renly, Stannis or Edmure, and seem to have a very ,,fuck you, got mine" attitude to people outside her family. Also her constantly thinking how much she loves Ned, while deflecting all her hatred towards him towards Jon Snow really gets under my skin. So how about you? What unconventional opinions do you have?

The Long Night was not a sin of man.  Lack of preparation because of conflict is the human sin.  An apt lesson when you consider what is happening today with the pandemic.

Lady Dustin is only partly right about the southron ambitions.  The maesters tried to set up the great houses to oppose the Targaryens.  Rickard and Robert were pawns.  Lady Dustin is mentally superior and saw through the nefarious machinations behind those wedding arrangements.  The Targaryens also saw through the conspiracy and made moves to stop it.  Lyanna felt guilty and knew it was wrong.  She ran away in the hopes of preventing the conspiracy from taking shape.

Daenerys Targaryen will marry three times and lose all three husbands.  Love gets in the way of duty.  Fate wants to keep her dedicated to the slaves. 

Mance Rayder is the father of Jon Snow. 

Jon and Arya will finally become mates after they die.  They will mate as wolves and build their own  pack. 

Sam Tarly will never get his maester's chains.  Euron will attack and all hell will break loose in the citadel.  The library will be burned.  Sam should save the candles and get them away from Euron.

Tyrion will find his chance at another love with Penny but reject it.  He is a tragedy in the making.  Like his brother.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes. Most people in GRRM story are not really bad. They turn bad because something happens to them. While other resist hardship. But I believe Cersei was born bad. Like a few others, Ramsay, Walder Frey ... in a weaker way. She was dominative, alpha Jaime was shaped in the underdog, the subservient. Strong only with his sword. Jaime was loving his sister, loving his little brother, despite his sister and father. Jaime is vulnerable to those he loves. I like him for that. And for "fuck my honor".

I agree Cersei was born bad (and made badder) - but Jaime the victim? That view should stay unconventional. Early Jaime is extremely self-satisfied, dominant in his own sphere of jousting and swordsmanship (all he cares about) and dominant sexually over Cersei as well.

My unconventional view is that the new Jaime is not much of an improvement over the old. He brings the Riverlands under Lannister peace - which face it, won't be much better than Roose Bolton's idea of peace. He smacked a man down for insulting Brienne, probably causing lasting injury - there could have been a better way. Besides, he doesn't even enjoy being good - he's frustrated and resentful. It's going nowhere.

On 4/16/2020 at 1:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

I do feel uncomfortable around women who ship relationships involving little girls and nihilistic murderers...

I think you can relax. That is, I have never in all my years on the forum seen anyone ship thirteen year old Sansa with the crazy Hound. The idea is that she will grow up into an adult. The idea is that both have the potential to be strongly good people. In the future.

Honestly, if your sensitivities prevent from reading the arguments, maybe you should hesitate before so absolutely condemning your fellow posters.

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3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think you can relax. That is, I have never in all my years on the forum seen anyone ship thirteen year old Sansa with the crazy Hound. The idea is that she will grow up into an adult. The idea is that both have the potential to be strongly good people. In the future.

Honestly, if your sensitivities prevent from reading the arguments, maybe you should hesitate before so absolutely condemning your fellow posters.

I just offered my opinion here and my feelings in relation to certain other opinions anyone can still utter here despite my personal misgivings. In my opinion, Sandor Clegane was part of the gang who abused Sansa - and whatever feelings she might have for him are the result of a twisted version of Stockholm Syndrome with her bonding with the least cruel/most sympathetic of her gaolers and torturers. This is nothing rational people should idealize or fantasize about. Just in my opinion, though. It is just as sick as painting Dany-Drogo as a great romance when this was sexual abuse, rape, and pedo sex. It is completely irrelevant that Dany grow to love her abuser - just as it is irrelevant that Sansa may have the hots for Sandor.

From what I recall about those SanSan threads from the past people did not really care much about Sansa's age - especially in light of the fact that assuming this relationship is consummated during the books it will involve a 13-14-year-old Sansa because she is not going to get older in the series.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

13-14-year-old Sansa because she is not going to get older in the series.

She's already almost 14. You say she is not going to age in the last two books? Oh, no hopefully she won't develop a leeches habit as well-then we know what's up :laugh:

I think all the Stark/Snow kids will properly 21st century style- grow up and maybe even old and die at the latest in the epilogue.

 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Mirri Maz Duur did nothing wrong. A Khal and his khalasar destroyed her village & raped her. It was right of her to kill Drogo.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

dominant in his own sphere of jousting and swordsmanship (all he cares about)

There yes, absolutely. He is the best swordsman, god of the battle field. Arrogant, everything, in this sphere where the better wins. No rule other than the sword during combat. Combat is where he is his own  master, free. Where nothing else matter.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

dominant sexually over Cersei as well.

But Cersei dominated sexually or otherwise? Never! IMO she plays a role. She is ashamed, maybe unconsciously, by her relationship with Jaime. So she imagines he controls her, force her. It's part of their love:ack:game. She plays the victim, to put the shame on him. But she could stop things anytime she want.

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