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Prince Rhaego's Soul

Samwell Tarly should remain craven

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Well, what do we really know about George R R Martin?  A lot of assumptions are made about the man.  His short stories in the thousand worlds are unusual science fiction material.  I just hope he is not planning on putting Samwell Tarly on the throne in the end.  While that may appeal to the bookish types, in my opinion, it is unrealistic.  There is a very good reason(s) for why Pickard is the captain rather than Data.  I hope he doesn't turn Samwell into a coward most days of the week but rises to the occasion when women and children are in danger.  A person who is not brave is more than likely to freeze and become paralyzed during highly stressful situations.

Randyll did him wrong.  We cannot really deny that.  However, we also cannot blame Randyll for not letting Samwell inherit the lordship of the family lands.  It is not about love.  Should not be about fatherly love.  It is about responsibility.  Responsibility to the land and its people.  Like it or not, a strong person should be in the position of leadership.  Someone who can protect the people and negotiate on their behalf.  The farmers need a lord who can negotiate for the price of their produce.  Strong does not have to mean skill with weapons.  Strong also means brave and persistent.  Somebody who can tolerate physical and emotional stress. Strong personal discipline is a must.  Samwell is a bookish man who never enjoyed the activities most boys do.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as the person is also brave and do not allow themselves to be dominated easily by their peers.  There is a place for such an intellectual.  But it is unconscionable to put such a person as head of the house in the medieval era.  He would never be able to advocate for the people on his lands.  

Samwell Tarly should remain true to his character in a realistic fashion.  I do not want to see this man in a leadership situation.  He had it right from the beginning when he took interest in the citadel.  Healer is not his area though.  Samwell might faint at the sight of intestines.  But he can be a capable historian or something that does not require too much physical field work.

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The more we criticize Samwell the greater the chances becomes his ample bottom will sit on the throne.  Martin is a very unconventional guy.  He marches to a different beat and probably by choice.  It doesn't make sense to have a King Samwell.  It's more fun if Samwell truly screws up.  Say he blows the horn to impress Alleras and then it ended up bringing down the Citadel on both their heads. 

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4 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Well, what do we really know about George R R Martin?  A lot of assumptions are made about the man.  His short stories in the thousand worlds are unusual science fiction material.  I just hope he is not planning on putting Samwell Tarly on the throne in the end.  While that may appeal to the bookish types, in my opinion, it is unrealistic.  There is a very good reason(s) for why Pickard is the captain rather than Data.  I hope he doesn't turn Samwell into a coward most days of the week but rises to the occasion when women and children are in danger.  A person who is not brave is more than likely to freeze and become paralyzed during highly stressful situations.

I think Samwell on the throne is a long shot. A position of power may make sense for him. That does not mean a character who would be expected to be martial, but someone who is strong and brave in a way atypical for Westeros -- growing to be emotionally strong, for example.

4 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Randyll did him wrong.  We cannot really deny that.  However, we also cannot blame Randyll for not letting Samwell inherit the lordship of the family lands.  It is not about love.  Should not be about fatherly love.  It is about responsibility.  Responsibility to the land and its people.  Like it or not, a strong person should be in the position of leadership.  Someone who can protect the people and negotiate on their behalf.  The farmers need a lord who can negotiate for the price of their produce.  Strong does not have to mean skill with weapons.  Strong also means brave and persistent.  Somebody who can tolerate physical and emotional stress. Strong personal discipline is a must.  Samwell is a bookish man who never enjoyed the activities most boys do.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as the person is also brave and do not allow themselves to be dominated easily by their peers.  There is a place for such an intellectual.  But it is unconscionable to put such a person as head of the house in the medieval era.  He would never be able to advocate for the people on his lands.  

If Randyll had a modicum of sense beyond his personal pride, he'd likely have recognized Samwell's sharp intellect and that he'd have a better acumen for numbers than Dickon. Unfortunately he only prized physical strength.

House Tyrell isn't thinking of disinheriting Willas because he's physically unable to fight. Randyll Tarly is just concerned about looking macho and doesn't take a second to think that Sam could hire masters-at-arms and advisors just as a less scholarly inclined lord has stewards and maesters.

5 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Samwell Tarly should remain true to his character in a realistic fashion.  I do not want to see this man in a leadership situation.  He had it right from the beginning when he took interest in the citadel.  Healer is not his area though.  Samwell might faint at the sight of intestines.  But he can be a capable historian or something that does not require too much physical field work.

A diplomat sort of position would not be too out of character either, in my opinion.

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Sam is nowhere near as craven as he thinks he is. I think he's genuinely more traumatized by the things his father did to him than actually craven. Randyll Tarly is a shit and abusive parent and a shit person in general and unpleasant AF.

Sam evolved in the second half of ASoS, he gets a little bit better in AFfC. He did manage to find his courage here and there at least. 

And I love the Willas Tyrell example, a character I cannot wait to finally meet. 

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Sam is not craven at all. He has been put into extreme situations and was able to exceed his own expectations. What he did for Gilly was really dangerous and a lot of people could not have done it or wouldn't have had the courage/the empathy to even try it (Jon didn't). But his good heart has led him to do what was right against all rules and danger to himself and the threat of dishonor and consequences even though he was scared shitless. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the only time a man can be brave- when he is afraid ? ;)

Sam is one of the only true knights in the story, who does what he can to protect  the weak regardless the consequences to himself- not only a clear sign of a good heart, but also of true courage. Don't confuse Sam's self image and his inner dialogue with his actual personality traits. His actions speak louder, than words. Also bravery doesn't equal fighting skill. Of course you won't be as afraid of  battle, if you have good fighting skills, but Sam was willing to risk his life to save Gilly and her baby as well. And the more afraid he was -also the braver he was. Sam gets the same treatment as Sansa does in that regard: Sansa is not physically strong and a feisty fighter like Arya-therefore she is weak, Sam is also not a great physical fighter and is afraid a lot- therefore he is craven. 

Sam thinks he is craven and has incredibly low self-esteem, because of all the abuse he had to suffer, h is traumatized (Not everyone has symptoms like Tyrion and the Hound) No one seems to take into consideration what an incredible accomplishment it is, that despite all the abuse he had to endure he is still such a wonderful person, who treats others right and with compassion (he doesn't let anyone else suffer for his trauma) and what an accomplishment it is, that even though he has been traumatized he pushed through his fear and self doubts and was able to accomplish truly heroic deeds, that songs should be sung about.

He is more courageous, than most other men in this series and also a whole lot stronger.

IMO readers sometimes keep on falling into traps GRRM deliberately has set up for us to fall into:  Sam is a craven just because he can't fight and tells himself and others so over and over again and has low self-esteem and not a lot of aggression in him, Sansa is shallow and weak just, because she isn't Arya and can't fight, isn't aggressive and wanted to marry a pretty prince at 11 (In general having a certain level of aggression and being quick to act is often equated with strength), Tyrion is the good guy just because he is an underdog, really intelligent, likable and funny at times, is generally capable of empathy and his self-proclaimed motto is, that he has a heart for bastards, cripples and broken things. 

IMO GRRM deliberately plays into these stereotypes, just to prove readers wrong, and to turn the tables and show us, that we are the ones, who are shallow and quick to judge without being willing to take a closer look, trying to understand/analyze the characters on a deeper- not only a surface level, read between the lines and than judge for ourselves, if their "reputation" is actually accurate.

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6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Well, what do we really know about George R R Martin?  A lot of assumptions are made about the man.  His short stories in the thousand worlds are unusual science fiction material.  I just hope he is not planning on putting Samwell Tarly on the throne in the end.

Yeah, I truly think you misunderstand GRRM intentions with Sam and also a couple of other characters. IMO one of his goals is to create psychologically realistic characters and for the most part he did pretty damn well in that regard- especially in comparison with other authors.

6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

 Strong also means brave and persistent.  

First of all I disagree, that Sam is not brave- he is. He has the capability to be both very strong and brave, despite childhood trauma.

6 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Randyll did him wrong.  We cannot really deny that.  However, we also cannot blame Randyll for not letting Samwell inherit the lordship of the family lands.  It is not about love.  Should not be about fatherly love.  It is about responsibility.  Responsibility to the land and its people.  Like it or not, a strong person should be in the position of leadership.  Someone who can protect the people and negotiate on their behalf.  The farmers need a lord who can negotiate for the price of their produce.  Strong does not have to mean skill with weapons.  Strong also means brave and persistent.  Somebody who can tolerate physical and emotional stress. Strong personal discipline is a must.  Samwell is a bookish man who never enjoyed the activities most boys do.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as the person is also brave and do not allow themselves to be dominated easily by their peers.  There is a place for such an intellectual.  But it is unconscionable to put such a person as head of the house in the medieval era.  He would never be able to advocate for the people on his lands.

A bookish lord (and I usually dislike the trope of the book-lover character) doesn't necessarily mean a bad lord- better a knowledgeable and smart one, than a dummy. Robb was great on the battlefield, but neglected other areas of warfare.

The problem is however, that I don't think Sam would necessarily want to become lord and that's why he maybe also wouldn't do the best job at it, because he is not really interested in it. But if he were, I wouldn't exclude the possibility, that he could become a great lord. Every character has a development and an arc. Sam is effected by his childhood trauma just as Sandor and Tyrion are and a stagnant character is an unrealistic and a bad one. There are still two books left, Sam is still only a teenager (16/17) and he has proven, that he can rise to the occasion, if need be before. Feeling constantly stressed out and afraid are also symptoms of abuse and not personality traits and could possibly be overcome with time and experience.

And yeah, we can totally blame Randyll IMO, because his abuse of his son might have played a big role in the manifestation of some of Sam's "weaknesses", that you are listing here.

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He's not going to be king, where's that come from?

Simple arc, supposed craven finds something he loves and cares about more than his own life, shows the courage to fight and defend it.

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Samwell loves books and he has knowledge.  He would make a wonderful librarian.  Being a coward will not stop him from excelling in that job.  House chef to a rich family is one other option.  If he doesn't eat them out of house and home that is.  Failing that, he can be the ass end (stern) ballast on the Cinnamon Wind.

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What, I never even considered him as a potential candidate for the throne until this topic. :o

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Well, what do we really know about George R R Martin?  A lot of assumptions are made about the man.  His short stories in the thousand worlds are unusual science fiction material.  I just hope he is not planning on putting Samwell Tarly on the throne in the end.  While that may appeal to the bookish types, in my opinion, it is unrealistic.  There is a very good reason(s) for why Pickard is the captain rather than Data.  I hope he doesn't turn Samwell into a coward most days of the week but rises to the occasion when women and children are in danger.  A person who is not brave is more than likely to freeze and become paralyzed during highly stressful situations.

Randyll did him wrong.  We cannot really deny that.  However, we also cannot blame Randyll for not letting Samwell inherit the lordship of the family lands.  It is not about love.  Should not be about fatherly love.  It is about responsibility.  Responsibility to the land and its people.  Like it or not, a strong person should be in the position of leadership.  Someone who can protect the people and negotiate on their behalf.  The farmers need a lord who can negotiate for the price of their produce.  Strong does not have to mean skill with weapons.  Strong also means brave and persistent.  Somebody who can tolerate physical and emotional stress. Strong personal discipline is a must.  Samwell is a bookish man who never enjoyed the activities most boys do.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as the person is also brave and do not allow themselves to be dominated easily by their peers.  There is a place for such an intellectual.  But it is unconscionable to put such a person as head of the house in the medieval era.  He would never be able to advocate for the people on his lands.  

Samwell Tarly should remain true to his character in a realistic fashion.  I do not want to see this man in a leadership situation.  He had it right from the beginning when he took interest in the citadel.  Healer is not his area though.  Samwell might faint at the sight of intestines.  But he can be a capable historian or something that does not require too much physical field work.

Sam was hideously bullied.  I don't think he is actually a coward.

His father was vile.  Had he concluded that his son was not up to the job of being Lord of Horn Hill, there is no reason at all why he could not have sent him to the Citadel, as Sam wished.  Maester is an honourable occupation, and suited to Sam's talents and temperament.  If I lived in Westeros, I would want to be a Maester.

Edited by SeanF

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:14 AM, SeanF said:

Sam was hideously bullied.  I don't think he is actually a coward.

His father was vile.  Had he concluded that his son was not up to the job of being Lord of Horn Hill, there is no reason at all why he could not have sent him to the Citadel, as Sam wished.  Maester is an honourable occupation, and suited to Sam's talents and temperament.  If I lived in Westeros, I would want to be a Maester.

Bullying among children is one of the problems in schools.  It creates a poor quality of life for the bullied person.  I can see how that could make Samwell fearful.  It may be too late to change because he's already a grown man.  

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Samwell should hire Jaqen H'ghar to kill his father, with the words "Sam Tarly sends his regards."

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:14 AM, SeanF said:

Sam was hideously bullied.  I don't think he is actually a coward.

His father was vile.  Had he concluded that his son was not up to the job of being Lord of Horn Hill, there is no reason at all why he could not have sent him to the Citadel, as Sam wished.  Maester is an honourable occupation, and suited to Sam's talents and temperament.  If I lived in Westeros, I would want to be a Maester.

Randyll Tarly is not the only lord who would refuse to let his trueborn son serve another house as a maester.  

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On 6/3/2020 at 2:54 AM, Bullrout said:

Bullying among children is one of the problems in schools.  It creates a poor quality of life for the bullied person.  I can see how that could make Samwell fearful.  It may be too late to change because he's already a grown man.  

He's already changed, infact he kind of becomes the aggressor as he beats the shit out of the smaller Dareon for not obeying his orders.

 

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Samwell should hire Jaqen H'ghar to kill his father, with the words "Sam Tarly sends his regards."

With what?

 

On 5/29/2020 at 1:14 PM, SeanF said:

Sam was hideously bullied.  I don't think he is actually a coward.

His father was vile.  Had he concluded that his son was not up to the job of being Lord of Horn Hill, there is no reason at all why he could not have sent him to the Citadel, as Sam wished.  Maester is an honourable occupation, and suited to Sam's talents and temperament.  If I lived in Westeros, I would want to be a Maester.

Being a Maester sounds like a shit job for someone from nobility. It is a life of servitude, mostly comfortable servitude, but still servitude. Maesters are brought on the battlefields and expected to treat to the wounded. Sam could not deal with such bloodshed, he'd probably never have became a Maester regardless of whether his father allowed him to indefinitely train as one.

I also disagree with the idea that he was hideously bullied. He was put through some harsh unconventional training, but being bullied seems a stretch, especially given the 'training' stopped.

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

Obviously Randyll got it wrong, that a different method may have succeeded. But what he did was not out of spite, but desperation and for Sam's own good, as well as the good for his House and his people.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 11:43 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Sam is not craven at all.

He was for most of the series. I don't really see how anyone can really argue differently. His reaction is to lie down and surrender, that is the behaviour of a craven.

He refuses to stand up for himself with the Master of Arms at Horn Hill, with the daughter of the cook at the Redwyne Islands, with the training were his instincts are to give up and even when his life depended on it he had to be carried because his instincts are too give up.

"Back on your feet, Piggy," someone growled as he went past, but Sam paid him no mind. I'll just lie down in the snow and close my eyes. It wouldn't be so bad, dying here. He couldn't possibly be any colder, and after a little while he wouldn't be able to feel the ache in his lower back or the terrible pain in his shoulders, no more than he could feel his feet. I won't be the first to die, they can't say I was. Hundreds had died on the Fist, they had died all around him, and more had died after, he'd seen them. Shivering, Sam released his grip on the tree and eased himself down in the snow. It was cold and wet, he knew, but he could scarcely feel it through all his clothing. He stared upward at the pale white sky as snowflakes drifted down upon his stomach and his chest and his eyelids. The snow will cover me like a thick white blanket. It will be warm under the snow, and if they speak of me they'll have to say I died a man of the Night's Watch. I did. I did. I did my duty. No one can say I forswore myself. I'm fat and I'm weak and I'm craven, but I did my duty.

This is craven behaviour. It takes Small Paul to carry him, and then eventually be killed as an indirect result of saving Sam.

 

 

On 5/28/2020 at 11:43 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

 

He has been put into extreme situations and was able to exceed his own expectations. What he did for Gilly was really dangerous and a lot of people could not have done it or wouldn't have had the courage/the empathy to even try it (Jon didn't).

You mean what Gilly did for him?

Gilly saved his life, Sam sat back as Mormont and others were being killed and he was ready to die with them. The women of Craster's Keep saved his life as he had once again gave up with no fight.

"No corn," said Mormont feebly. "Tell Jorah. Forgive him. My son. Please. Go."
"It's too far," said Sam. "I'll never reach the Wall, my lord." He was so very tired. All he wanted was to sleep, to sleep and sleep and never wake, and he knew that if he just stayed here soon enough Dirk or Ollo Lophand or Clubfoot Karl would get angry with him and grant his wish, just to see him die. "I'd sooner stay with you. See, I'm not frightened anymore. Of you, or . . . of anything."
"You should be," said a woman's voice.
 
He does improve after he comes face to face with an Other and live, but before that he was absolutely a Craven.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 11:43 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

 

 

but Sam was willing to risk his life to save Gilly and her baby as well.

No he wasn't. He wanted Jon to do it.

He found Sam behind the hall, standing with Gilly at the broken rabbit hutch. She was helping him back into his cloak, but when she saw Jon she stole away. Sam gave him a look of wounded reproach. "I thought you would help her."
"And how was I to do that?" Jon said sharply. "Take her with us, wrapped up in your cloak? We were commanded not to—"
"I know," said Sam guiltily, "but she was afraid. I know what it is to be afraid. I told her . . ." He swallowed.
"What? That we'd take her with us?"
Sam's fat face blushed a deep red. "On the way home." He could not meet Jon's eyes. "She's going to have a baby."
 
Sam was not risking anything, he expected Jon to take the risk on. And later on it is Gilly and her sisters/mothers who saves him.
On 5/28/2020 at 10:17 PM, Vaith said:

 

If Randyll had a modicum of sense beyond his personal pride, he'd likely have recognized Samwell's sharp intellect and that he'd have a better acumen for numbers than Dickon.

We literally know nothing about Dickon. Why is the assumption that Sam is better at numbers than his brother?

This is weird, do people really think you are either a jock or a mathematic? Not that we even know if Dickon is particularly jockish.

On 5/28/2020 at 10:17 PM, Vaith said:

 

Unfortunately he only prized physical strength.

Where do you get this from?

Sam not being strong, though given his size and his bearing of Dareon he likely is, was not the issue, It was his unwillingness to try.

Lords need to lead. Sam had no backbone, his instincts were to give in and comply when things even got slightly hard. He'd rather lie down than stand up for himself, had no problem with being humiliated. These are not ideal for a Lord.

Usually in these discussions I'd refer to the well documented childhood of William Marshall (the guy who Barristan is loosely based on), on how heirs were brought up by Lords. He famously told King Stephen, who was holding his son hostage;"I still have the hammer and the anvil with which to forge still more and better sons!"  These were distant relationships, were the importance was on raising Lords rather than sons.

Another example is Henry VIII, who was initially raised as the spare, with Arthur leading a demanding childhood, and then his father became far more strict and demanding once he was heir.

Now though the best example is Netflix's the Crown, which gets on point how cold and distant the relationship between Elizabeth and Charles was due to the need for him to be ready for his responsibilities as  ruler, plus Elizabeth's changed relationship with her own father once her uncle abdicated the Throne and she became heir.

Rulers have to raise heirs who can protect these dynasties, protect the lands and people. It is less about love and more about duty.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 10:17 PM, Vaith said:

House Tyrell isn't thinking of disinheriting Willas because he's physically unable to fight.

No. But that does not seem to have been the issue with Sam. The issue was that he would rather lie down and die rather than stick up for himself.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 10:17 PM, Vaith said:

 

Randyll Tarly is just concerned about looking macho

I guarantee that is not true.

 

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 9:10 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Well, what do we really know about George R R Martin?  A lot of assumptions are made about the man.  His short stories in the thousand worlds are unusual science fiction material.  I just hope he is not planning on putting Samwell Tarly on the throne in the end.  While that may appeal to the bookish types, in my opinion, it is unrealistic.  There is a very good reason(s) for why Pickard is the captain rather than Data.  I hope he doesn't turn Samwell into a coward most days of the week but rises to the occasion when women and children are in danger.  A person who is not brave is more than likely to freeze and become paralyzed during highly stressful situations.

Randyll did him wrong.  We cannot really deny that.  However, we also cannot blame Randyll for not letting Samwell inherit the lordship of the family lands.  It is not about love.  Should not be about fatherly love.  It is about responsibility.  Responsibility to the land and its people.  Like it or not, a strong person should be in the position of leadership.  Someone who can protect the people and negotiate on their behalf.  The farmers need a lord who can negotiate for the price of their produce.  Strong does not have to mean skill with weapons.  Strong also means brave and persistent.  Somebody who can tolerate physical and emotional stress. Strong personal discipline is a must.  Samwell is a bookish man who never enjoyed the activities most boys do.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as the person is also brave and do not allow themselves to be dominated easily by their peers.  There is a place for such an intellectual.  But it is unconscionable to put such a person as head of the house in the medieval era.  He would never be able to advocate for the people on his lands.  

Samwell Tarly should remain true to his character in a realistic fashion.  I do not want to see this man in a leadership situation.  He had it right from the beginning when he took interest in the citadel.  Healer is not his area though.  Samwell might faint at the sight of intestines.  But he can be a capable historian or something that does not require too much physical field work.

We know how the story ends and there won't be a King Samwell. He will grow as a character, and take risks he hadn't before 

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Sam is going to have some traumatizing events in TWOW and ADOS that would mold him to his ultimate character arc ... Sam the Slayer.

I predict:
In TWOW, Euron murders Gilly & throws her into the sea, in front of Sam. Sam goes into berserker mode and tries to kill Euron with a crossbow. Just like Sam slaying a White Walker and a wight, his attempt will have a surprising unintentional outcome: Sam shoots out Euron's remaining eye ... leaving Euron blind and ripe for embarrassment.

Throw-away GoT dialogue that could foreshadow TWOW events that you may have missed in a blink of an eye!

Spoiler


Gilly: "... a wink is on purpose"

Wink (one eye) is intentional ... Euron and his one eye
Blink (no eyes) is unintentional ... Euron with no eyes after Sam unintentionally shoots it out

 

Sea what I mean?

I predict in ADOS that Sam's brother and father will be killed in action by a dragon at the Trident.
Sam goes into berserker mode again at Harrenhall where he leads a company of archers (like the Tarly sigil) who fires flaming arrows and obsidian arrows at wights and White Walkers in this massive epic climax battle. (Get it? flames & obsidian .... glass candles? Weapons to fight the Long Night ~ glass candles of Urrathon Night-Walker. (Gee I wonder what "urra-Thon Night-Walker" means? Boom Boom Doom-Doom!)  )

Anyways by the end of ASOIAF, Samwell Tarly will be notoriously known as Sam the Slayer in Westeros. It feels kinda bittersweet that Sam is going to be a first-class bad-ass ... but his father will never see it.

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Samwell is said to be the character most like George.  I see Sam getting a heroes death at the end.  I do not mean redemption.  He will always be craven but he will die as a hero because of a one time act of goodness at the end.  Like maybe he puts an obsidian dagger in a wighted Jon Snow and a berserk Bran Stark.

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