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R2D

Anyone else hate the concept of Shiera Seastar?

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21 hours ago, R2D said:

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

No, he definitely didn't. Because - Quaithe in person appeared in A Clash of Kings, which was published in 1998. While Deviantart was founded in 2000.

"quai" (in name Quaithe), same as "shiera" translates/means (from Japanese, French, etc.) - 1. dock or wharf, 2. chain of mountains or ghat, 3. long barrow/burial mounds.

Shiera/Quaithe/the Three-Eyed Crow is GRRM's parallel to characters in Welsh and Irish mythology and Arthurian legends - banshee (translates from Old Irish as "woman of the fairy mound" or "fairy woman"), Morrigan the queen of phantoms, who was able to turn into a crow (Badb Catha - "battle crow"), and lovers of wizard Merlin - Morgan le Fay and water fairy Nimue, the Lady of the Lake, who gave sword Excalibur to King Arthur. Also "mor" in Morrigan and Morgan translates as "the sea", and Shiera's second name is Seastar/the star of the sea.

5 hours ago, R2D said:

I don't care about your fan theories.

Then wait until you will read it in The Wind of Winter, written by GRRM himself. :cheers:

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It doesn't really matter. Shiera is only a background character, it's weird to complain about the characterization of a character who we will probably not see in present time. There are other equally bland characters who are "historical" figures in ASOIAF and nowhere near get the bad rep Shiera get. Like someone else suggested on this thread focus on the actual characters who are like this, get scenes and somehow are beloved (like Darkstar and Val).

I for one particularly dislike Val. It feels like GRRM forgot everything has said on Noble Ladies, knight ladies etc. when he designed her. She is not fleshed out beyond some "badass" characteristics. The only time she was somewhat interesting is when she suggested that Shireen should be killed and then she went back to her usual bland self. It's because of this why I hope she will be involved in the burning of Shireen. It would give her some depth and before some people come at me I am not suggesting she will be all evil about it. Perhaps it will be because Stannis and co. want to burn Mance's "son" for his king's blood and Val just manipulates the situation so that Shireen is the one who gets burned, and in the end she could feel guilty about choosing which child gets burned or not. This way she made a moral apprehensive choice but also sympathetic one, because at the end of the day she was only protecting her "nephew". 

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21 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Don't allow the bored imaginations of a very hungry fandom bring you down.   Shiera Seastar is a mystery on par with Ashara Dayne.  We aren't all interested in the same facets of ASOIAF.  Some enjoy the whole hidden identity thing or shipping romances or figuring out the actual sizes of armies.  There is plenty of frivolous conversation, but some decent insight usually rises to the surface in them.  Is Sheira enough of a character to even care about without her association with Bloodraven?  Yah, I think she might be.   Since Blood and Fire I have become really dubious about some of the witchy female characters, including Sheira.  Magic practitioner?  Like what?  Duels for her hand?   Sounds like there weren't a lot of beautiful women at the time.  One thing I think we can rely on is that she was interesting.   Any interest of Bloodraven's is interesting.  Even the boring Blackfyres.  I would like to know her fate and what influence she held if any over her half brothers.  Seems to me any woman with that much to offer would have some sort of importance beyond being the object of so many men's affections.  Still, I have never cared enough about her to post a topic.   She's an extraordinary illegitimate child with all the finest benefits of royal rearing.  Then she is legitimized with her gang of famous half siblings.   There is something there, but what?    

I agree. 

I am not interested in the Starks but it's fine with me if other fans are.  There is something in the books for everybody to like.  Or dislike.  

23 hours ago, R2D said:

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

She's a *~princess~*

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful') and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her.

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous.

It is Arya Stark who is ridiculous to me.  A kid who peels the skin off of corpses and wears them like a mask!

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It is Arya Stark who is ridiculous to me.  A kid who peels the skin off of corpses and wears them like a mask!

Never happened. Maybe you're watching too much teevie.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/1/2020 at 11:33 AM, R2D said:

First off, her name

I think the name is supposed to emphasize the "share a sister" situation with both Bloodraven and Bittersteel as her lovers.

On 8/1/2020 at 11:33 AM, R2D said:

she's not allowed to have flaws

 

On 8/1/2020 at 1:31 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she sacrifices people for plastic surgery then I'm actually interested.

Duncan: You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?

Aegon: Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty.

She bathes in blood and apparently dances with demons and practices the black arts. Not flaws necessarily, but not your typical Pollyanna character.

On 8/1/2020 at 12:07 PM, Hodor the Articulate said:

She's mentioned in the main series like, once.

I know there is at least one determined forum participant who believes she has made appearances as Quaithe. I don't take a position on that, but I do see echoes of Shiera Seastar in an interesting character: Salladhor Saan, the Lysene pirate.

The Shiera / Bloodraven / Bittersteel triangle is an example of a pattern that GRRM uses over and over again with trios of characters bonded by love and hate. So I try not to get hung up on liking or disliking the character of Shiera but instead try to figure out how the author uses her story to drop hints about other characters and their relationships.

Edited by Seams

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

echoes of Shiera Seastar in an interesting character: Salladhor Saan, the Lysene pirate.

:blink: Um... My corvid brain won't stretch that far. Give us a clue! :)

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

:blink: Um... My corvid brain won't stretch that far. Give us a clue! :)

Saan meets up with Davos Seaworth right after the burning of the icons of the 7 gods, which are made out of masts of ships. This is a really important moment in the Stannis / Davos / Melisandre arc.

I think Melisandre resembles Danelle Lothston. GRRM does things to balance or juxtapose forces or characters. After the burning of the masts, he needed a character to balance out Melisandre. Who shows up but Salladhor Saan, dressed in cloth of silver and with the blue and green eyes of peacock feathers on his hat - the cloth of silver and blue/green eyes are specific attributes of Sheira Seastar.

(Of course, the peacock could be a metaphor for Bloodraven, with his thousand eyes and one. But the details match Sheira. The ship name prominently mentioned in Salladhor's scene with Davos is Bird of Thousand Colors. I suspect the thousand is a Bloodraven allusion again. The colors are a rainbow allusion - associated with Renly - and a contrast with the shadows associated with Melisandre. Birds could be another Bloodraven allusion but the bird symbolism in ASOIAF is pretty complex so it could imply another pie being cut open, like the pie at Joffrey's wedding feast that preceded his death, or it could be like the little birds associated with Varys as the ship is carrying news from King's Landing.)

Because Davos is the POV who has the strongest affinity with the sea, a "patron saint" associated with Seastar seems appropriate. Davos ends up being very skeptical of Melisandre, but he manages to stay alive, unlike Cressen.

It would not surprise me at all if there is dark magic associated with the rebirth of Davos after his drowning in the Black Water. Something similar happened to revive Patchface, who was brought to Westeros after Steffon Baratheon failed to find a bride for Rhaegar during his trip to Essos. It was one of Salladhor Saan's ships that picked up Davos from the rock where he was stranded in the Blackwater.

The rivalry between Renly and Stannis is somewhat comparable to the rivalry between Bloodraven and Bittersteel. I think GRRM is using the earlier family trio (Bloodraven / Sheira Seastar / Bittersteel) to drop some hints about the current family rivalry. In the later trio, however, the role of Sheira may be split into Davos / Cressen / Salladhor Saan / Patchface - all Stannis loyalists. The strongest parallel, based on his apparel, is Sheira / Salladhor. 

In the books published so far, Salladhor seems to be giving up on Stannis, finally, after sticking with him through some tough setbacks.

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We know so little about her that it feels weird to say hate.

However, she appears (by implication) to be yet another of GRRM’s overly-sexualized preteens, given that she can’t have been more than 12-13 years old by the time the Blackfyre Rebellion started.

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On 8/1/2020 at 11:33 AM, R2D said:

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

She's a *~princess~*

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful') and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her.

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous.

Eyes of different colors is a flaw.  Lack of symmetry and balance.

Being smart and able to speak many languages.  Reputation for magic.  All to make her a more interesting character.  She would not be talked about today if she were average.  All those traits make her all the more interesting.

 

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Shiera is a splice of Maleficient and Loki. A "what if" one of these magical characters isn't concerned with saving the world, running and righting the realm, or other such things, but is purely interested in what wonders can be done for the spectacle of it, with playful contempt for the innocent little non magical humans that die in the process.

She suspects or knows Targaryens second lifed dragons, and Summerhall will prove to be her attempt to make it happen again. She is the guiding light behind Euron in his attempt to second life one of Dany's dragons, and she is Quaithe, leading Dany on the other side towards Euron and Dany's own second lifing.

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On 8/1/2020 at 11:33 AM, R2D said:

Anyone else think Shiera Seastar is a completely lame character? 

First off, her name already sounds like something GRRM got trawling through Deviantart.

She's a *~princess~*

Not only is she incredibly gorgeous, she also has different colored eyes (which should be a defect but which 'only make her look even more beautiful') and silver-gold hair. So YOUNEEK.....

She's smart and can speak several languages, cause she's not allowed to have flaws apparently.

She can do magic and was reputed to be a sorceress.

If that wasn't enough, men desire her so much they kill themselves over her.

To me she reads like a preteen girl's self insert character. She's just ridiculous.

Shiera is actually a very interesting character because of those "gifts."  Let's take a look at the social system of the time.  The ruling class have created a social system in which they govern by virtue of having special blood.  This privileged status does not have to be earned, nor does it have to be deserved by virtue of merit.  They simply have it because they are legally special and born superior by law.  It's an artificial superiority that they created.  Shiera and the Targaryens at least have something actual from which to build their superiority.  They are different and some of that family have abilities which are not found in most people. 

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1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Shiera is actually a very interesting character because of those "gifts."  Let's take a look at the social system of the time.  The ruling class have created a social system in which they govern by virtue of having special blood.  This privileged status does not have to be earned, nor does it have to be deserved by virtue of merit.  They simply have it because they are legally special and born superior by law.  It's an artificial superiority that they created.  Shiera and the Targaryens at least have something actual from which to build their superiority.  They are different and some of that family have abilities which are not found in most people. 

Heh..... I would say that the Starks, Durrandons/Baratheons, Arryns, Lannisters and Martells have enough reason to be considered special. By virtue of being dynasties stretching over 8000 years and other quirky qualities each house embody in this fantasy world....

And the only thing making Targaryens special and enabled them to conquer it all was the giant flying fire breathing cheat codes they had and nobody else did...... Without them, the whack-jobs lost everything they had in the next century and a half....... Precisely because they thought, they are artificially above all others.....

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On 8/3/2020 at 4:53 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I personally like the theory that Shiera and Bloodraven begat Melisandre.  Other than that, I can't think of many other useful theories involving Shiera.

Unless she is Quaithe. 

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16 hours ago, Orm said:

Heh..... I would say that the Starks, Durrandons/Baratheons, Arryns, Lannisters and Martells have enough reason to be considered special. By virtue of being dynasties stretching over 8000 years and other quirky qualities each house embody in this fantasy world....

And the only thing making Targaryens special and enabled them to conquer it all was the giant flying fire breathing cheat codes they had and nobody else did...... Without them, the whack-jobs lost everything they had in the next century and a half....... Precisely because they thought, they are artificially above all others.....

The Valyrians were more advanced compared to the people of Westeros.  The Targaryens have achieved far more than the Starks and the Durandons.  The Targaryens are superior.   The Starks had their warg powers, human sacrifices, and skin changing.  All it got them was dominion over an icey waste land.  And recognizably looong faces.  All it took was the stupid son of that stupid house breaking his oath to Walder Frey to make them homeless.  Oh, and also a self-centered daughter of the house blabbing daddy's getaway plan to their number one enemy. 

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6 hours ago, Big P said:

The Valyrians were more advanced compared to the people of Westeros

So Valyrians as a whole are Targs??

Seems to me like we have been reading different books.....

6 hours ago, Big P said:

The Targaryens have achieved far more than the Starks and the Durandons

Yeah....only via cheat codes I mentioned above....

 

6 hours ago, Big P said:

The Targaryens are superior.   The Starks had their warg powers, human sacrifices, and skin changing.  All it got them was dominion over an icey waste land.  And recognizably looong faces.  All it took was the stupid son of that stupid house breaking his oath to Walder Frey to make them homeless.  Oh, and also a self-centered daughter of the house blabbing daddy's getaway plan to their number one enemy. 

So you just want to rant??

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