Waymar/Robar Royce should have married Sansa Stark

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I can get behind the Starks marrying Sansa to a Royce instead of Joffrey, but not Waymar. The guy was an entitled dick who was too stupid to even realise how stupid he was. He thinks he knows better than two experienced rangers and when he's faced with the most dangerous entities of GRRM's universe, he ends up pointlessly dying and getting the other two killed. All he knows is how to fight, how to die, and how to get other people killed. That's not what Robb needed on his war council. 

[CamiloRP]

6 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

My impression is that most marriages prior to Robert's rebellion where within their respective region. Therefore Sansa is more likely to marry heir to northern house. Though Sansa having a mother from the South, would increase her chance to marry outside the North,

This. A thousand times this. Before RR most lords wed their vassals. It's pretty fucking weird to have high lords marry high ladies. Yet prior to RR we have a lot of high lord on high lady marriages, betrothals and possible betrothals : Stark-Tully, Stark Baratheon, Lannister-Tully and Lannister-Martell. Even after RR we get Baratheon-Lannister and Tully-Arryn. Some people believe this points to a maester conspiracy, some people think it was part of Rhaegar's plan to usurp his father (semented by the Targaryen-Martell marriage)

[norwaywolf123]

15 hours ago, James Steller said:

It’s not like the Andals are all portrayed as bad and the First Men as good. Look at the Boltons, Skaggosi, Free folk, Ryswells, and Dustins. They are all portrayed as savage and/or untrustworthy. Even the Starks are descended from men who hung entrails in trees or who sacrificed people to the weirwoods. 

Among the fandom there does appear to be a faction supporting the First Men over the Andals. The Rhoynar too sometimes appear as a faction.

My understaning is that there are no Rhoynar in Westeros, no Andals and no First Men. Instead there are different cultural regions and subregions. Some regions might have more influence from the First Men than another. For example the influence of the First Men is stronger in the North and the Iron Isles, than in the Vale. 

15 hours ago, James Steller said:

if anything, the divide between north and south seems a bit too simple. GRRM talks about how there are many old god worshippers south of the Neck (enough to justify the existence of godswoods in almost every castle). But out of all the noble houses south of the Neck, only the Blackwoods worship the old gods? There should have been a few more than just one. Maybe two or three houses in each region? And it doesn’t have to be a good guy or a bad guy indicator. Hell, make the Freys old god worshippers for all I care. But House Royce clearly should have been worshippers of the old gods for all they still cling to their bronze armour and old runes.

Prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasion both Ireland and Britain spoke Celtic languages. Afterwards England and Lowland Scotland spoke Germanic, while Ireland and the rest of Britain kept speaking Celtic. The Anglo-Saxon migration was not "clean", and there was some overlap between Celtic and Germanic influence. 

I imagine that during the time of the Faith militant, it was not easy being of the Old Gods. Additonally, many of the peoples following the Faith of the Seven, probably have some traditons inherited from the time the Old Gods reigned south of the Neck. Once Maegor and Jaehaerys abolished the Faith militant this pressure would have dissapeared to a large extent. It is also mentioned that following the Dance, many Northerners settled in the Riverlands, bolstering the numbers of the Old Gods there.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 9/1/2020 at 8:03 AM, James Steller said:

Not that I approve of the patriarchy, but Eddard has three sons. Sansa is fourth in line. Nobody would realistically expect her to become her father’s heir (before the war began, I mean). The Royces aren’t exactly House Frey, either. They’re an ancient house who used to be kings, and they’re still militarily the silver medal to House Arryn. The Royces are also noted warriors. Having even one of them on your side would be nothing except advantageous. Imagine Robb going south with Waymar or Robar on his military council, or fighting alongside him in battle.

Marrying a Frey wouldn’t be that bad of a match, as long as it’s the heir. The same is true for the Royces and I’d argue more so. However, the heir to House Frey would be a preferable match to the third son of House Royce. That’s probably why he took the Black in the first place.

[Canon Claude]

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Marrying a Frey wouldn’t be that bad of a match, as long as it’s the heir. The same is true for the Royces and I’d argue more so. However, the heir to House Frey would be a preferable match to the third son of House Royce. That’s probably why he took the Black in the first place.

To be fair, having Sansa marry a third son of House Royce would be better than her marrying the heir to House Frey (who would have been old enough to be her grandfather at the start of AGOT). Waymar stands to inherit nothing, so he'd be beholden to the Starks. If something happened to Eddard's sons (which holy hell, look at that, something DID happen!) Sansa would be able to keep her surname, Waymar would take the name Stark, and their children wouldn't have any issues over legitimacy. 

17 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I can get behind the Starks marrying Sansa to a Royce instead of Joffrey, but not Waymar. The guy was an entitled dick who was too stupid to even realise how stupid he was. He thinks he knows better than two experienced rangers and when he's faced with the most dangerous entities of GRRM's universe, he ends up pointlessly dying and getting the other two killed. All he knows is how to fight, how to die, and how to get other people killed. That's not what Robb needed on his war council. 

That's very unfair. Waymar wasn't stupid when he faced the Others, he was brave. The man knew that he wasn't going to survive once he'd been caught, but goddamn if he didn't make a proper final stand. "Dance with me, then" is still one of my favourite lines in the books, and it's what first really hooked me when I first read the prologue. This arrogant dick rises up to the occasion and actually makes the Others pause when he isn't afraid of them. It's a bit like in the fifth book when Clayton Suggs, by all accounts a low-grade Ramsay character, notices riders approaching Stannis' camp and just rips his sword out of its scabbard and urges Asha to warn everyone else because he's preparing to fight to the death. GRRM playing with the bully trope was a welcome relief to me after so many cliches.

[Lee-Sensei]

25 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, having Sansa marry a third son of House Royce would be better than her marrying the heir to House Frey (who would have been old enough to be her grandfather at the start of AGOT). Waymar stands to inherit nothing, so he'd be beholden to the Starks. If something happened to Eddard's sons (which holy hell, look at that, something DID happen!) Sansa would be able to keep her surname, Waymar would take the name Stark, and their children wouldn't have any issues over legitimacy. 

That's very unfair. Waymar wasn't stupid when he faced the Others, he was brave. The man knew that he wasn't going to survive once he'd been caught, but goddamn if he didn't make a proper final stand. "Dance with me, then" is still one of my favourite lines in the books, and it's what first really hooked me when I first read the prologue. This arrogant dick rises up to the occasion and actually makes the Others pause when he isn't afraid of them. It's a bit like in the fifth book when Clayton Suggs, by all accounts a low-grade Ramsay character, notices riders approaching Stannis' camp and just rips his sword out of its scabbard and urges Asha to warn everyone else because he's preparing to fight to the death. GRRM playing with the bully trope was a welcome relief to me after so many cliches.

True. I was just speaking generally. If there was a younger Frey heir, marrying him would be a better match than Lord Royces third son, because the Freys have a large army and a lot of money. Second and third sons generally have a lot less. Sansa would have probably loved him though. He was a skilled warrior, handsome and highborn. He was a bit arrogant, but he didn’t seem cruel and he probably had a good heart.

[R2D]

18 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I can get behind the Starks marrying Sansa to a Royce instead of Joffrey, but not Waymar. The guy was an entitled dick who was too stupid to even realise how stupid he was. He thinks he knows better than two experienced rangers and when he's faced with the most dangerous entities of GRRM's universe, he ends up pointlessly dying and getting the other two killed. All he knows is how to fight, how to die, and how to get other people killed. That's not what Robb needed on his war council. 

Yo preach.

Hate Waymar, smug prick. I get that he was brave and all but his pointless machismo only got all of them killed. He's been relegated to a hero in the fandom which is annoying.

[James Steller]

46 minutes ago, R2D said:

Yo preach.

Hate Waymar, smug prick. I get that he was brave and all but his pointless machismo only got all of them killed. He's been relegated to a hero in the fandom which is annoying.

A hero? Who calls him that? I don’t see anybody building a pedestal for Waymar Royce. 
 

Personally, I agree with Claude’s take. He was a naive and arrogant douchebag, but he was clearly brave and willing to fight rather than make others fight for him. It was GRRM transcending a simple bully character and making him three dimensional. 

[R2D]

7 hours ago, James Steller said:

A hero? Who calls him that? I don’t see anybody building a pedestal for Waymar Royce. 
 

Personally, I agree with Claude’s take. He was a naive and arrogant douchebag, but he was clearly brave and willing to fight rather than make others fight for him. It was GRRM transcending a simple bully character and making him three dimensional. 

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And don't ask for examples, I don't have the time and I dislike overly pedantic nerds.

[The Hoare]

On 9/1/2020 at 10:16 AM, James Steller said:

There aren’t exactly a lot of great options for Sansa. And I can think of quite a few second sons who married above their station to either join another family or because they had prestige or competence in their corner. The Royces have both those things in buckets, plus Eddard has both personal and distant family ties to the Vale.

There are hundred of options better than a second son. The North itself is full of young heirs whose father's would eagerly accept a marriage with their liege lord's daughter.

[Groo]

As other posters have mentioned, marrying between the Great Houses is not the norm. A quick look at the family trees confirms this. Balon Greyjoy married a Sunderly and his mother was a Harlaw, both houses from the Iron Islands. Eddard’s mother was a Stark and his grandmothers were a Locke and a Flint, both houses from the North. Catelyn’s mother was a Whent from the Riverlands. We don’t have the name of Jon Arryn’s mother but his first wife was a Royce. His sister Alys married a Waynwood and his brother Ronnel married a Belmore. All houses from the Vale. Mace Tyrell married a Hightower and his mother was a Redwyne, both houses from the Reach. Cersei’s mother was a Lannister and her grandmothers were a Marbrand and a Prester, both houses from the Westerlands. We don’t know the names of either of Doran Martell’s parents. He married outside of Dorne but even that wasn’t to another Great House. He married Mellario from Norvos.

 

The pattern is clear. Great Houses usually marry within their own domain, which makes sense. It promotes regional cohesion and solidarity. Marrying into another Great House creates serious potential problems and conflict. Consider the Tully situation, for example. Prior to Edmure’s marriage, Robb Stark was the next in line to inherit Riverrun but Robert Arryn also has a claim to Riverrun. If Edmure dies without an heir who gets Riverrun? One of the Starks or Robert Arryn? There’s at least the possibility of the North and the Vale ending up in a war over control of the Riverlands. I’m not expecting that to occur in the story but it is an example of the problems that can come when Great Houses intermarry.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Natural Log said:

As other posters have mentioned, marrying between the Great Houses is not the norm. A quick look at the family trees confirms this. Balon Greyjoy married a Sunderly and his mother was a Harlaw, both houses from the Iron Islands. Eddard’s mother was a Stark and his grandmothers were a Locke and a Flint, both houses from the North. Catelyn’s mother was a Whent from the Riverlands. We don’t have the name of Jon Arryn’s mother but his first wife was a Royce. His sister Alys married a Waynwood and his brother Ronnel married a Belmore. All houses from the Vale. Mace Tyrell married a Hightower and his mother was a Redwyne, both houses from the Reach. Cersei’s mother was a Lannister and her grandmothers were a Marbrand and a Prester, both houses from the Westerlands. We don’t know the names of either of Doran Martell’s parents. He married outside of Dorne but even that wasn’t to another Great House. He married Mellario from Norvos.

 

The pattern is clear. Great Houses usually marry within their own domain, which makes sense. It promotes regional cohesion and solidarity. Marrying into another Great House creates serious potential problems and conflict. Consider the Tully situation, for example. Prior to Edmure’s marriage, Robb Stark was the next in line to inherit Riverrun but Robert Arryn also has a claim to Riverrun. If Edmure dies without an heir who gets Riverrun? One of the Starks or Robert Arryn? There’s at least the possibility of the North and the Vale ending up in a war over control of the Riverlands. I’m not expecting that to occur in the story but it is an example of the problems that can come when Great Houses intermarry.

Apart from Cregan Stark marrying a Blackwood or Gerold Lannister marrying Rohanne Webber. And Tywin allowed his brother Kevan to marry the daughter of a onetime disgraced knight.

[GoldenGail3]

No he’s a part of the NK.

[Groo]

39 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Apart from Cregan Stark marrying a Blackwood or Gerold Lannister marrying Rohanne Webber. And Tywin allowed his brother Kevan to marry the daughter of a onetime disgraced knight.

Further examples of Great Houses not normally marrying into other Great Houses. There are exceptions to everything, of course. My point is that some commentators think Sansa's marriage prospects would only have been to sons of the Great Houses or royalty. This clearly wouldn't have been the case, which is relevant to the original post in this thread.

[Angel Eyes]

18 minutes ago, Natural Log said:

Further examples of Great Houses not normally marrying into other Great Houses. There are exceptions to everything, of course. My point is that some commentators think Sansa's marriage prospects would only have been to sons of the Great Houses or royalty. This clearly wouldn't have been the case, which is relevant to the original post in this thread.

And for some reason neither Ned nor Catelyn considered the North for Sansa's marriage prospects, though some of them are probably too old like Harrion Karstark, too low on the totem pole (Jojen Reed) or dead (Domeric Bolton).

[Canon Claude]

19 hours ago, R2D said:

I dislike overly pedantic nerds.

Then what are you even doing on this site? 

3 hours ago, Natural Log said:

Further examples of Great Houses not normally marrying into other Great Houses. There are exceptions to everything, of course. My point is that some commentators think Sansa's marriage prospects would only have been to sons of the Great Houses or royalty. This clearly wouldn't have been the case, which is relevant to the original post in this thread.

 

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And for some reason neither Ned nor Catelyn considered the North for Sansa's marriage prospects, though some of them are probably too old like Harrion Karstark, too low on the totem pole (Jojen Reed) or dead (Domeric Bolton).

It's tough to say how many options were available to Sansa because we don't know all their ages, but we do know that Cley Cerwyn was a promising option. He's close to Sansa' age, he's the heir to a major Northern house that's close to Winterfell, and he's clearly a decent guy who's regularly interacted with the Starks. Daryn Hornwood was also a possible option for Sansa before his engagement to Alys Karstark.

And as for Alys, she could have gotten engaged to Robb; her father Rickard definitely wanted that to happen. What puzzles me is how that scene would have gone down and how Ned and Catelyn didn't address the obvious suggestion by Rickard. Anyone who's read the books would know that Rickard wasn't a man to take rejection or insult lightly, and he doesn't strike me as a subtle guy (he literally tells his child-age daughter to win over Robb when he takes her to Winterfell, after all). How did Ned side-step the possibility of getting Robb engaged to Alys, and moreover, why did he turn that down? Hell, why did Catelyn turn that down?

It's actually my biggest issue with House Tully; for all that they're apparently about marriage and family, nobody aside from Hoster lives up to that standard. Brynden is a confirmed and stubborn bachelor, Lysa is a complete trainwreck of a mother (because of Hoster and Littlefinger, I know, but still), Edmure is a cheerful playboy into his 20s/30s even when his dad is very sick and he stands to become Lord of Riverrun any minute, and Catelyn apparently didn't bother with marriage plans before Robert showed up, even when her children were on the cusp of coming of age (and we know that many noble houses start looking when their kids are still kids). 

[James Steller]

9 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

It's tough to say how many options were available to Sansa because we don't know all their ages, but we do know that Cley Cerwyn was a promising option. He's close to Sansa' age, he's the heir to a major Northern house that's close to Winterfell, and he's clearly a decent guy who's regularly interacted with the Starks.

Really weird how I never wondered about that until now. But seriously, Cley and Sansa would have been exactly the sort of match that great houses make with their vassal houses. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I've always thought that Ned wasn't too eager marry off his children, it decide on betrothals at a young age, because he was afraid of something similar happening to any of them as it did with Lyanna. I think he intended to wait for them to be interested in someone (suitable to their station), so that their marriages could be based on both love and politics. Sansa was only 11 years old at the start of AGoT, so it makes sense that he wasn't going to broker a marriage for her, even if she did have a childish crush on a handsome young man, who was already 'promised' to the Wall.

He was quite hesitant about the marriage to Joffrey, but he obviously had little choice in the matter, since Robert was the king, and his best friend as well. It probably helped that Sansa was head over heels in love with Joffrey, but he seemed to be pretty aware of how young and naive she was, and that it was more of a silly crush, then actual love.

[Only 89 selfies today]

Waymar is landless and that makes him unattractive to somebody like Sansa, who has a very high opinion of herself.  Allayne, otoh, is a match that could work for a boy of equivalent standing to Waymar. 

[BlackLightning]

On 9/3/2020 at 5:20 PM, Canon Claude said:

What puzzles me is how that scene would have gone down and how Ned and Catelyn didn't address the obvious suggestion by Rickard. Anyone who's read the books would know that Rickard wasn't a man to take rejection or insult lightly, and he doesn't strike me as a subtle guy (he literally tells his child-age daughter to win over Robb when he takes her to Winterfell, after all). How did Ned side-step the possibility of getting Robb engaged to Alys, and moreover, why did he turn that down? Hell, why did Catelyn turn that down?

It's actually my biggest issue with House Tully; for all that they're apparently about marriage and family, nobody aside from Hoster lives up to that standard. Brynden is a confirmed and stubborn bachelor, Lysa is a complete trainwreck of a mother (because of Hoster and Littlefinger, I know, but still), Edmure is a cheerful playboy into his 20s/30s even when his dad is very sick and he stands to become Lord of Riverrun any minute, and Catelyn apparently didn't bother with marriage plans before Robert showed up, even when her children were on the cusp of coming of age (and we know that many noble houses start looking when their kids are still kids). 

I think it's rather simple.

Ned and Cat are really good people who made a good team and raised really good kids. However, they wanted to make sure that their children stayed children for as long as possible. So they sheltered them.

You can tell based on how dreamy Bran and Sansa are and how important the concept of honor is to Robb, Jon, Sansa and Bran. And all six of the Stark kids were taken completely off-guard by the realities of the world.

While you can make an argument in regards to Sansa, there is absolutely no reason why Robb wasn't already betrothed by the time A Game of Thrones had begun. Margaery Tyrell (or any one of her Tyrell first cousins), Myranda Royce, Alys Karstark, Dacey Mormont, Alysanne Mormont, any one of the Bracken or Frey girls, Bethany Blackwood, one of Wyman's granddaughters and Talla Tarly all would've been great matches.