Star Wars: For All Your PT, OT, ST, & AT-AT/ST Needs

[Heartofice]

Talking about bull***t force powers, Leia being ejected into space, basically dying, waking up and using force to fly through space.. was probably the point at which i thought ‘screw you movie’.

 

It was hard to recover after that point, I was so shaken by the stupidity and disrespect of that scene, that nothing afterwards could save TLJ. ( though the movie did get objectively worse afterwards anyway)

[Derfel Cadarn]

I liked that scene. She didn’t fly, she basically Force-pulled herself towards the ship.

The Force has always been vague. 
1st film: mind control, choking,’throwing a sound, sensing stuff, disappearing on death (wtf?), then able to talk to people after dying.

2nd film; telekinesis, appearing after death. Advanced gymnastics.

3rd film: Shooting lightning.

[Vaughn]

I'm in the camp that the Leia thing took me out of the movie. I watched the first 1/2 of 'Infinity War' last night and it is funny to see the enormously powerful Maw character just immediately killed by exposure to the vacuum of space. (Not to derail this topic, but that seems far too easy a way to kill him honestly, considering he was the only henchman who could really do much.)

It's not fair to compare most things to Avatar in terms of narrative, but the ST would have been more interesting if they'd gone for the Zuko arc vs. whatever it was that was the Kylo Ren story. However, the idea that you can be a total monster for decades only to do one good thing at the end and earn redemption is very on brand for Star Wars. I'll never understand/agree with the redemption of Vader at the end of RotJ for one dying act of heroism. What a load of BS.

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I liked that scene. She didn’t fly, she basically Force-pulled herself towards the ship.

The Force has always been vague. 
1st film: mind control, choking,’throwing a sound, sensing stuff, disappearing on death (wtf?), then able to talk to people after dying.

2nd film; telekinesis, appearing after death. Advanced gymnastics.

3rd film: Shooting lightning.

There are so many problems with that scene though.

Firstly, have to try and think about how she managed to survive unscathed from the massive explosion that ripped apart the ship. Answer I guess is handwaving with the force

Secondly how did she manage to survive so long in space without her guts exploding or whatever happens to you in space. Answer again I guess is something lazy about the force

Thirdly is the fake out death nature of it, which I found to be in actual poor taste considering Fisher's passing. I was all prepared to think 'ok that is a reasonably sad ending to the character, but I guess that had to happen' Only for it to all be a 180 and we were being emotionally manipulated about Leia (and consequently Fisher) dying. I found that particularly galling.

Then the execution of it is really bizarre. She is in that strange Superman position, and doesn't move, she just slides along the screen like Mary Poppins on a wire. It was really badly done more than anything.

I lost patience with the movie after that point, before then I think I was kind of overlooking a lot of the failings, like the bombing run, Rose, Johnson's treatment of Finn as a clown etc. 

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Vaughn said:

I'll never understand/agree with the redemption of Vader at the end of RotJ for one dying act of heroism. What a load of BS.

This is true. It really wouldn’t have changed the overall tone of the ending that much if Vader has said “I’m glad I saved you, and that I got to look on you with my own eyes. But I’ve done some horrific things, and for that, leave me here to die.” Then no force ghost at the end. 

This goes a bit deeper into Anakin in the PT and the Clone Wars, but it’s still not clear how much one can blame ‘the dark side’ for your behaviour. Does it make you immediately subservient to your master? Or does Vader truly believe the Empire is the best solution for the galaxy? Anakin was sympathetic to a strong military presence in CW, and vaguely whiney about politicians in the PT. How much does force ghost Anakin truly regret about his actions? It’s hard to imagine a simple compulsion to save your own son would simultaneously overturn all your political beliefs for the past 19 years.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Secondly how did she manage to survive so long in space without her guts exploding or whatever happens to you in space. Answer again I guess is something lazy about the force

That, at least, is easily answered. Your guts don't explode. What happens to Leia is (allowing for some minor poetic licence) what actually happens: you get very cold and begin to asphyxiate. But you can survive for a while (how long depends on various factors, but think under 30 seconds), long enough for Leia's Force abilities to kick in.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

That, at least, is easily answered. Your guts don't explode. What happens to Leia is (allowing for some minor poetic licence) what actually happens: you get very cold and begin to asphyxiate. But you can survive for a while (how long depends on various factors, but think under 30 seconds), long enough for Leia's Force abilities to kick in.

The movie doesn't really ever show you how long Leia was in space before she 'wakes up', which is kind of sly. It also insinuates that she passes out. You're right, about 30 seconds is maybe the max she could last, I do remember reading about some guy who passed out in a vacuum and his saliva started to boil after about 15 seconds. 

Either way, it all felt rather a stretch of logic at the time, and just seemed to hand wave with 'oh the force did it' as the answer to it all.

[TrueMetis]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

That, at least, is easily answered. Your guts don't explode. What happens to Leia is (allowing for some minor poetic licence) what actually happens: you get very cold and begin to asphyxiate. But you can survive for a while (how long depends on various factors, but think under 30 seconds), long enough for Leia's Force abilities to kick in.

Sort of one of the big problems with star wars in a nutshell. People will call out things as unrealistic not based on whether is actually is, but on their expectations. Which is fair enough, "reality is unrealistic" is a film staple, but it does feel weird to see people hyperfocus on one aspect while ignoring other just as, if not more so, unrealistic parts of the films. "How do the bombs drop in space without gravity?" I don't know, how to the X-wings bank without an atmosphere?

[Relic]

I pretyt much hated TLJ after thinking about it for a coule of days, but I dont have any issues with Leia in space. Clearly the Force was keeping her alive, and that's pretty cool. 

[Vaughn]

23 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

This is true. It really wouldn’t have changed the overall tone of the ending that much if Vader has said “I’m glad I saved you, and that I got to look on you with my own eyes. But I’ve done some horrific things, and for that, leave me here to die.” Then no force ghost at the end. 

This goes a bit deeper into Anakin in the PT and the Clone Wars, but it’s still not clear how much one can blame ‘the dark side’ for your behaviour. Does it make you immediately subservient to your master? Or does Vader truly believe the Empire is the best solution for the galaxy? Anakin was sympathetic to a strong military presence in CW, and vaguely whiney about politicians in the PT. How much does force ghost Anakin truly regret about his actions? It’s hard to imagine a simple compulsion to save your own son would simultaneously overturn all your political beliefs for the past 19 years.

Exactly. If Göring had killed Hilter before the fall of Berlin, he gets a pardon? I think not. It's a weird flaw build into Star Wars that the stories are very specific about just how monstrous the Empire / First Order is and yet we're asked for some level of sympathy for people very near the top of it. This is done very well in Avatar with Zuko but in Star Wars forgiveness works more like the most lenient version of Christianity where a death bed confession can offset a lifetime of terrible sins (I think? Not a theologian or practicing Christian.)

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, Vaughn said:

I'm in the camp that the Leia thing took me out of the movie. I watched the first 1/2 of 'Infinity War' last night and it is funny to see the enormously powerful Maw character just immediately killed by exposure to the vacuum of space. (Not to derail this topic, but that seems far too easy a way to kill him honestly, considering he was the only henchman who could really do much.)

It's not fair to compare most things to Avatar in terms of narrative, but the ST would have been more interesting if they'd gone for the Zuko arc vs. whatever it was that was the Kylo Ren story. However, the idea that you can be a total monster for decades only to do one good thing at the end and earn redemption is very on brand for Star Wars. I'll never understand/agree with the redemption of Vader at the end of RotJ for one dying act of heroism. What a load of BS.

We don’t actually know he died - maybe his powers are keeping him alive and he’s just floating out there :p

[Vaughn]

To be more specific, I have a lot less of a problem in a western type story where a bad guy finds redemption after a life of crime and some murders. My issue with Star Wars redemption arcs is that the bad guys are not just killing a few people but literally billions of people in planetary destruction.

[Toth]

7 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

To be more specific, I have a lot less of a problem in a western type story where a bad guy finds redemption after a life of crime and some murders. My issue with Star Wars redemption arcs is that the bad guys are not just killing a few people but literally billions of people in planetary destruction.

Tarkin got a redemption arc?

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Force has always been vague. 

Agreed.  On Rey transporting the lightsaber to Ren, at least their weird-ass force-bond was developed over multiple films rather than basically coming out of nowhere like a number of force powers you listed in the OT.

[Inkdaub]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:58 AM, Jaxom 1974 said:

Unless JJ did it and then you could show a montages of the two flying around to random planets like some sort of travelog for the first ten minutes or so...get a little more third movie in the series symmetry...

Maybe with it sped up while old timey circus music plays.

[felice]

3 hours ago, Vaughn said:

To be more specific, I have a lot less of a problem in a western type story where a bad guy finds redemption after a life of crime and some murders. My issue with Star Wars redemption arcs is that the bad guys are not just killing a few people but literally billions of people in planetary destruction.

Nah, Vader is a double agent the whole time. He objects to the Death Star and lets Luke blow it up (you don't sneak up on a Sith Lord without being noticed like the Falcon appeared to), and kills more senior Imperial officers than anyone else.

[Vaughn]

7 minutes ago, felice said:

Nah, Vader is a double agent the whole time. He objects to the Death Star and lets Luke blow it up (you don't sneak up on a Sith Lord without being noticed like the Falcon appeared to), and kills more senior Imperial officers than anyone else.

Hmm, I'm more in the Peter Principle camp in that Vader was super evil but never really talented enough to be the head guy which is why he fucked up so often during critical moments.

Also, c'mon Lando probably killed more senior Imperial officers than anyone when he took out Deathstar 2.

[Week]

20 hours ago, Vaughn said:

Agree to disagree about Gungans, but I'm glad there's no push back on my other point that Anakin had a very high body count for 9 year old. Of course he went to the dark side - he clearly exhibited the behavior of a psychopath from day one.

Yippee!!

[Paxter]

My $0.02:

• It's fine to love the OT, mainly because SW was such an iconic blockbuster film and Empire is pure gold from a lot of perspectives. TROTJ rides on the coattails of the other movies and is close to being an outright bad film. 
• It's fine to passionately hate the PT, mainly because of the bad writing and acting. ROTS has some OK moments and is clearly the best of the three movies. 
• It's fine to passionately hate TROS. TFA and TLJ are not great films (the first is basically a remake and the second has some dumb side-plots) but I don't think they are bad enough to receive the hatred that is often directed their way. 

Overall: OT has 2/3 great films, PT has 1/3 pass-mark films, ST has 2/3 pass-mark films. 

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, Vaughn said:

Hmm, I'm more in the Peter Principle camp in that Vader was super evil but never really talented enough to be the head guy which is why he fucked up so often during critical moments.

Also, c'mon Lando probably killed more senior Imperial officers than anyone when he took out Deathstar 2.

In the old EU, its actually the destruction of the Executor that is said to have truly decapitated the command structure of the Imperial Navy.  They said that as Vader's flagship, most of the up and coming officers with a promising path to leadership were assigned to the ship and when it took a nose dive into the Death Star it destroyed the command structure up and down the ladder.