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Tyrion1991

The impracticalities of Jon’s resurrection

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I am not sure how this can work unless George introduces some random magical healing magic to handwave this. He was stabbed through the gut multiple times ala Julius Ceaser and left for dead in the snow. 

- So all his digestive organs have been cut to pieces and he’s horrifically scarred.

- His body would become necrotic at the extremities due to the freezing cold temperatures. Unless he’s like immediately resurrected a few minutes after death.

- You can’t frame that as a miracle if he looks like a zombie. Are the people of the North and Wildlings (who fear wights) going to be okay and understanding about this? It’s a very tough sell if he looks like Coldhands.

- Why would Dany want a relationship with somebody whose guts are visible? For one thing, wouldn’t he smell like a rotting corpse? I mean how is the guttering even still working for Jon at this point?

- So does he just not eat, sleep, piss or poop from now on? If those parts aren’t working then why would any other part of his body work? Shouldn’t he start crumbling to bits because his body won’t heal naturally? How can a clinically brain dead meat puppet feel emotion or pain? Too many questions.

- It’s quite convenient the NW didn’t aim a little lower or higher. Perhaps George is going to have him proactively conceal the extent of his deformities so people don’t think he’s a monster. Maybe start wearing something to smother the smell as well.

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I get how ya feel. There are many theory’s as to how it will occur. Some point to Arya and her stage play with false blood and bladders. As in Jon is staging his death for all to see. His duty ends at death to the watch. More attest his soul will migrate to ghost. Wile most just say magic. Then there’s the minuscule minority who point to worms and other life forms that are described throughout the books and that these things take possession of their host, or are unaware of a symbiotic coexistence, that results in supernatural phenomena. Some people may not be human or unaware that they are not men. Ibbenese, Brindlemen, Others, and Children of the forest as an example.

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Lord Beric touched the spot above his left ear where his temple was caved in. "Here is where Ser Burton Crakehall broke helm and head with a blow of his mace." He unwound his scarf, exposing the black bruise that encircled his neck. "Here the mark the manticore made at Rushing Falls. He seized a poor beekeeper and his wife, thinking they were mine, and let it be known far and wide that he would hang them both unless I gave myself up to him. When I did he hanged them anyway, and me on the gibbet between them." He lifted a finger to the raw red pit of his eye. "Here is where the Mountain thrust his dirk through my visor." A weary smile brushed his lips. "That's thrice I have died at the hands of House Clegane. You would think that I might have learned . . ."

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

The story Beric Dondarrion (and to a lesser extend LSH) is setting the resurrection of Jon. Neither Dondarrion nor LSH needed to eat, drink and sleep. They do not tire.

You can expect psycological changes of course as we have seen in those characters and the reparation of the body is also limited, as we can specially see in LSH.  The quicker the better, it seems.

But there are two differences in Jon's case.

1) His soul might be stored for a while within Ghost for a while, see Varamyr chapter.

2) His body might be stored in the ice cells for a while, and ice preserves.

There is another theory that they might try to incinerate Jon's body and then he will come back, mirroring Dany's pyre.

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49 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I am not sure how this can work unless George introduces some random magical healing magic to handwave this. He was stabbed through the gut multiple times ala Julius Ceaser and left for dead in the snow. 

- So all his digestive organs have been cut to pieces and he’s horrifically scarred.

- His body would become necrotic at the extremities due to the freezing cold temperatures. Unless he’s like immediately resurrected a few minutes after death.

- You can’t frame that as a miracle if he looks like a zombie. Are the people of the North and Wildlings (who fear wights) going to be okay and understanding about this? It’s a very tough sell if he looks like Coldhands.

- Why would Dany want a relationship with somebody whose guts are visible? For one thing, wouldn’t he smell like a rotting corpse? I mean how is the guttering even still working for Jon at this point?

- So does he just not eat, sleep, piss or poop from now on? If those parts aren’t working then why would any other part of his body work? Shouldn’t he start crumbling to bits because his body won’t heal naturally? How can a clinically brain dead meat puppet feel emotion or pain? Too many questions.

- It’s quite convenient the NW didn’t aim a little lower or higher. Perhaps George is going to have him proactively conceal the extent of his deformities so people don’t think he’s a monster. Maybe start wearing something to smother the smell as well.

Given Melisandre's visions in the flame, in those that she sees him as a wolf, anf then again as a human sounds to me like proof for his memory not being damaged, like Beric's was.

I'm sure he will die and will be ressurected, not only because the vision, but because being stabbed several times is not meant to be survivable.

On how will he be ressurected, I don't know. Melisandre seems to be out of the way, since she could only bring him back damaged.

Other options I see being available:

-Val: We don't know everything about her. She might have magical power. 

-The Gods themselves: If he is TPTWP, I do think the Gods may pull a ressurection card out of their pocket. I'm not sure which gods, tho, but I'd put my bet on the Old Gods.

-Bloodraven, Bran, Children of the Forest: I don't know, I tought about this one too, tho this idea has no base out of Bloodraven being a tricky guy.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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There are real people that have been stabbed multiple times and have survived without need of magical intervention. None of the wounds that Jon receives are necessarily mortal, or imply any kind of disfigurement.

That said, I agree with your assessment that it will be difficult for George to resolve that plot point satisfactorily. If Jon is easily resurrected, his death will be seen as a cheap cliffhanger. If he comes back horribly scarred or zombie-like, I don't see how he will be able to work as a POV or serve worthwhile role in the future events. And I don't know how it will be possible to reconcile all this with George's statement that Gandalf should have remained dead. :dunno:

Sometimes I wonder if the best George could do is subvert all expectations and do what no one expects him to: leave Jon dead.

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8 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

There are real people that have been stabbed multiple times and have survived without need of magical intervention. None of the wounds that Jon receives are necessarily mortal, or imply any kind of disfigurement.

That said, I agree with your assessment that it will be difficult for George to resolve that plot point satisfactorily. If Jon is easily resurrected, his death will be seen as a cheap cliffhanger. If he comes back horribly scarred or zombie-like, I don't see how he will be able to work as a POV or serve worthwhile role in the future events. And I don't know how it will be possible to reconcile all this with George's statement that Gandalf should have remained dead. :dunno:

Sometimes I wonder if the best George could do is subvert all expectations and do what no one expects him to: leave Jon dead.

I would say that is the best he could do, but I don't think he will do it.

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46 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

There are real people that have been stabbed multiple times and have survived without need of magical intervention. None of the wounds that Jon receives are necessarily mortal, or imply any kind of disfigurement.

That said, I agree with your assessment that it will be difficult for George to resolve that plot point satisfactorily. If Jon is easily resurrected, his death will be seen as a cheap cliffhanger. If he comes back horribly scarred or zombie-like, I don't see how he will be able to work as a POV or serve worthwhile role in the future events. And I don't know how it will be possible to reconcile all this with George's statement that Gandalf should have remained dead. :dunno:

Sometimes I wonder if the best George could do is subvert all expectations and do what no one expects him to: leave Jon dead.

Well, Cat didn't stay dead. :dunno:

For me, the most popular scenario in the fandom is the most irreconcilable one with a straight face. The one in which GRRM kills Jon but spares him from degradation by this wee little warg mechanics he himself so conveniently invented. If you are producing a principle and telling it in every interview as if it is some huge discovery, stick to it. Don't try to walk around it by a self-made rule.

That is why I think GRRM should proceed with the least problematic scenario, i.e. repeat what he did to Bran in AGoT for Jon. And if some fans can't reconcile with the idea of Jon not actually dying... Well, surely there will be Rant & Rave without Repercussion threads.

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He shouldn’t be resurrected.  His body will remain active for as long as the weather stays cold.  In other words, long enough for him to do what he was meant to do.  The cold will preserve him as long as the winter is in effect.  His mind is safely inside Ghost and will live the wolf’s lifespan.  

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

He was stabbed through the gut multiple times ala Julius Ceaser and left for dead in the snow. 

- So all his digestive organs have been cut to pieces and he’s horrifically scarred

See the next 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

There are real people that have been stabbed multiple times and have survived without need of magical intervention. None of the wounds that Jon receives are necessarily mortal, or imply any kind of disfigurement.

Explained better than I could've 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

His body would become necrotic at the extremities due to the freezing cold temperatures. Unless he’s like immediately resurrected a few minutes after death.

That's what I guess will happen. That or George will give us all the middle finger and repeat the cliffhanger like Bran and Rickon in ACOK and Arya and Sandor before the Red Wedding and reveal that he never died. His cryptic phrase 'u think he's dead do u', paraphrased, is hint enough 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You can’t frame that as a miracle if he looks like a zombie. Are the people of the North and Wildlings (who fear wights) going to be okay and understanding about this? It’s a very tough sell if he looks like Coldhands.

All of this in the unlikely (arguably) event of the previous becoming true, and the previous have convincing opposing argument points 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why would Dany want a relationship with somebody whose guts are visible? For one thing, wouldn’t he smell like a rotting corpse? I mean how is the guttering even still working for Jon at this point?

Same as previous. And why do you too ship Jon Dany? Unlikely with the amount of time left in plot, Dany's eerie lover choices history etc. Just curious 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So does he just not eat, sleep, piss or poop from now on? If those parts aren’t working then why would any other part of his body work? Shouldn’t he start crumbling to bits because his body won’t heal naturally? How can a clinically brain dead meat puppet feel emotion or pain? Too many questions.

- It’s quite convenient the NW didn’t aim a little lower or higher. Perhaps George is going to have him proactively conceal the extent of his deformities so people don’t think he’s a monster. Maybe start wearing something to smother the smell as well.

All conveniently assuming earlier points to be true, and again, convincing argument points against it 

Edited by TheLastWolf
Typo errors

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2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

There are real people that have been stabbed multiple times and have survived without need of magical intervention

Any examples from the medieval ages? Oh, and take into account that he got stabbed in the middle of a conflict/bloodshed , where people might not even realise what happened, or those who assassinated them might not even let anyone help him.

It wouldn't take 2 minutes to lose enough blood to die. And even if someone might try to stop the bleeding, it would be pretty hard, likely not even worth the try.

Also, such a stab would make the abdominal cavity fill with blood and whatever liquid (feces, stomach acid or gall along with whatever he drank recently). 

Edit: If bleeding away does not, internal infection caused by this would 100% kill him.

Then, take into account that he wasn't stabbed with knives (the lenght of those likely would't reach 10 centimeters/3 inches) but by daggers, far longer and also wider weapons, being sharp on each sides.

He gets one cut on his neck, that barely injures him, then a stab in the belly, one in the shoulder ( where major blood veins run), and he doesn't even feel the fourth. 

He might have received even more while being unconscious.

This is not the 21st century. Believe me, he died, and will be ressurected somehow.

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

1) His soul might be stored for a while within Ghost for a while, see Varamyr chapter.

2) His body might be stored in the ice cells for a while, and ice preserves

Plus Melisandre's visions for 1 as you yourself said earlier 

2 is very convenient and probable

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Given Melisandre's visions in the flame, in those that she sees him as a wolf, anf then again as a human sounds to me like proof for his memory not being damaged, like Beric's was

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Sometimes I wonder if the best George could do is subvert all expectations and do what no one expects him to: leave Jon dead.

Cheap cliffhanger, after his arc and all, too many untied ends... 

18 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

He shouldn’t be resurrected.  His body will remain active for as long as the weather stays cold.  In other words, long enough for him to do what he was meant to do.  The cold will preserve him as long as the winter is in effect.  His mind is safely inside Ghost and will live the wolf’s lifespan.  

I'll be sure to tell George next time I meet him. The emboldened part plus how you have read his mind and are so sure about TWOW AND ADOS plot. Y wait for them while you guys know the plot. The unemboldened part of the quote is nice wishful irrationally hating fanfic. No text support sadly 

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1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

See the next 

Explain better than I could've 

That's what I guess will happen. That or George will give us all the middle finger and repeat the cliffhanger like Bran and Rickon in ACOK and Arya and Sandor before the Red Wedding and reveal that he never died. His cryptic phrase 'u think he's dead do u', paraphrased, is hint enough 

All of this in the unlikely (arguably) event of the previous becoming true, and the previous have convincing opposing argument points 

Same as previous. And why do you too ship Jon Dany? Unlikely with the amount of time left in plot, Dany's eerie lover choices history etc. Just curious 

All conveniently assuming earlier points to be true, and again, convincing argument points against it 

 

To have a fake out for Jons death would cheapen the conclusion of his arc. 

Why would the assassins be that sloppy? Why not put a dagger through his eye or heart. Too convenient. Just grazing him a little bit and not piercing any vital organs? 

The people who take that kind of injury usually don’t die and are able to heal naturally over the course of several months of advanced hospitalisation. Which does not exist in George’s world and George can’t keep Jon out of the action for him to recover from such injuries. 

They did this on the show which suggests this is where George is going with a magical resurrection. Cold Hands, Cat and Beric are all monstrous and inhuman in aspect. George has set the terms pretty clearly for a resurrection. To explain this away for Jon because George wants him to be the Aragorn guy would be very suspect.

I do not ship Jon and Dany and don’t think George can make that work in one book. But it’s going to happen so how would him being a corpse puppet fuelled by magic who can’t feel anything or get it up or even take a dump not get in the way of this? George wanted a big tragic incest romance with Arya and Jon. It’s quite easy to infer this has been shifted to Dany and Jon.

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2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I do not ship Jon and Dany and don’t think George can make that work in one book. But it’s going to happen so how would him being a corpse puppet fuelled by magic who can’t feel anything or get it up or even take a dump not get in the way of this? George wanted a big tragic incest romance with Arya and Jon. It’s quite easy to infer this has been shifted to Dany and Jon.

Oh boy, Val is more likely 

There are way too many more likely ships 

Here... 

Don't bother replying, I'm off to sleep. Nice discussion with you for a change 

Adios and gnsd

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I think the same concept used to birth the dragons will be used for Jon Snow. That blue print is being used by Euron in The Forsaken and I think will also be used for Jon Snow. The only thing that changes is the elements. Dany's rebirth and the birth of the dragons happened fire. Euron is enacting that same ritual in water, which his element because he is ironborn, and whatever happens with Jon will be done through ice (the Wall, the magic that's woven there) and fire (Melisandre and her magic). 

I think like the 3EC served as a guide for Bran during his coma, Bran will be Jon's guide while he's inside Ghost. The set up is there from ACoK between Bran and Jon and that encounter they had while Bran was in the crypts and Jon in the Frostfangs.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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43 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Any examples from the medieval ages?

Not precisely medieval ages but close enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edgehill

By the following morning the King and his army returned to the Edge Hill escarpment and Essex's army returned to Kineton. It was a bitterly cold night with a hard frost. This was suggested by contemporary reports as the reason many of the wounded survived, since the cold allowed many wounds to congeal, saving the wounded from bleeding to death or succumbing to infection.

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15 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Not precisely medieval ages but close enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Edgehill

By the following morning the King and his army returned to the Edge Hill escarpment and Essex's army returned to Kineton. It was a bitterly cold night with a hard frost. This was suggested by contemporary reports as the reason many of the wounded survived, since the cold allowed many wounds to congeal, saving the wounded from bleeding to death or succumbing to infection.

I hardly find this as proof against being stabbed several times. Being wounded has a wide meaning. In fact, when you get shot by an arrow or get stabbed by a spear you might actually survive for a couple of hours, if you don't pull out the weapon that damaged you. This isn't Jon's case. Under his clothes, I can barely imagine the blood freezing on his body. 

This might also be true in the case of any deeper cut on the limbs, or if no organ is damaged, just muscles (this, again ia not Jon's case).

 

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Jon was killed because this is apparently a very crucial moment for the character's plot, perhaps the most important moment in his entire development. It will change him fundamentally. Anything else is silliness.

Yes, his spirit will be safe in Ghost from the effects of the afterlife ... but his body will be dead, and it won't be that of a mortal human being upon his resurrection.

Considering his family tree there is a chance that a fire magic resurrection thingy is going to affect him in a different, more powerful way than Beric and Catelyn were effected ... after all, even Beric's blood was able to create burning swords after his resurrection.

But any idea that this is just going to be a thing that will be brushed off or won't move him from the sphere of normal mortal people to that of the magical/divine freaks is nonsense. People will view him the way people view(ed) Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart.

I'm also not holding my breath for Jon continuing as a POV. There is a reason why Melisandre was introduced as a POV in ADwD. Jon is no longer necessary a POV for his own story nor the general story at the Wall. There is a replacement POV in place.

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The first attacker just nicked Jon on the side of his neck. Then Jon was stabbed once in his belly. He was wearing multiple layers of clothes, including a fur cloak that covered his back. The next hit landed on his back, but could be that it wasn't a deep wound. It would have been hard to stab deep thru all those layers of fur, mail, leather, and wool. So unless that attacker managed to jab his dagger between vertebraes and damaged Jon's spine, or the dagger went all the way thru all those layers and deep into his body to his heart or one of his lungs, which is very unlikely, then that last hit didn't made a big or serious wound.

Also, unless that dagger that stabbed Jon in the belly got thru his diaphragm to his internal organs, or nicked a major blood vessel, then that wound is also not deadly.

I don't think that Jon died as result of that assassination attempt. Thus he won't require a resurrection.

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I hardly find this as proof against being stabbed several times.

Jon was stabbed two times. And the second one, most likely, wasn't even deep.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XV#Assassination_attempt

 

"On 5 January 1757, as the King was getting into his carriage in the courtyard of the Grand Trianon Versailles, a demented man, Robert-François Damiens, pushed through the King's guards and attacked the King, stabbing him in the side with a small knife. The King's guards seized Damien, and the King ordered them to hold him but not harm him. The King walked up the steps to his rooms at the Trianon, where he found he was bleeding seriously. He summoned his doctor and a priest, and then fainted.[64] Louis was saved from greater harm by the thickness of the winter clothing he was wearing."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Stabbing_survivors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Finch_(died_1763)

(1692-1763)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begum_Samru

(1753-1836)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Farquhar

(1774-1839)

That's not examples from Medieval ages, though there's not much difference between medical treatment in those times (1600-late1800) and Medieval ages, because both were prior invention of antibiotics (in late 1880s), X-ray (1895), and Louis Pasteur's discovery (1881) that diseases are caused by bacterias.

So those four examples from above, people that were stabbed like Jon, weren't treated much differently than what maesters and other "medical workers" do in Westeros while treating victims of stabbing.

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