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Tyrion1991

The impracticalities of Jon’s resurrection

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He will come back.  He will learn who his mother is but will not be able to do anything with that knowledge.  Jon will come back in the form of a wight and start searching for Arya. 

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A few days ago I came across this theory and, honestly? I find it completely plausible. They are solid arguments with textual evidence. Martin has also commented on how frustrating Gandalf's resurrection was, and I think it's quite possible that he really isn't doing that on ASOAIF (resurrecting characters), especially considering the fact that you can warg inside of dead bodies.

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

The first attacker just nicked Jon on the side of his neck. Then Jon was stabbed once in his belly. He was wearing multiple layers of clothes, including a fur cloak that covered his back. The next hit landed on his back, but could be that it wasn't a deep wound. It would have been hard to stab deep thru all those layers of fur, mail, leather, and wool. So unless that attacker managed to jab his dagger between vertebraes and damaged Jon's spine, or the dagger went all the way thru all those layers and deep into his body to his heart or one of his lungs, which is very unlikely, then that last hit didn't made a big or serious wound.

Also, unless that dagger that stabbed Jon in the belly got thru his diaphragm to his internal organs, or nicked a major blood vessel, then that wound is also not deadly.

I don't think that Jon died as result of that assassination attempt. Thus he won't require a resurrection.

Mostly speculation.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

So those four examples from above, people that were stabbed like Jon, weren't treated much differently than what maesters and other "medical workers" do in Westeros while treating victims of stabbing.

Except none of these were stabbed like Jon. Jon was stabbed with daggers. Daggers are not knives being able to hide in your palm. They are actual weapons, for close combat! Far longer than a simple knife. Then, by the time these people were stabbed, they mostly knew which organ might have been harmed, etc. The difference bettween the two occasions are several centuries, like 500 years in technological advancement. There is noone who actually might know which organ of Jon might be damaged, or noone that might give him some kind of medieval first aid, and jon also fainted, he could not remain conscious afterwards, and that is mostly . We also don't know if the fourth was the last stab. The chapter ends when Jon faints. We also don't know when those who might help him survive realise what happened to him. We also don't know if the assasins will let anyone touch him unless he dies.

A grown man does have around 4,5 litre pf blood. Of someone loses more than two litres in the 21st century, the man is dead. Even if the bloodloss is less, the only chance for saving someone is blood clotting medicament, and instant blood transfusion. If Jon loses 1,5 litre of blood, he is straight dead. There's no way to save him. And you seem to forget that it's not that much, when you're bleeding from several (and also serious) wounds.

After all, I might be wrong too, but I insist him being dead.

Edit: Oh, and don't forget what Melisandre saw. That insists that his soul will leave his body, but will return. How do you interpret that then?

 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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Blood flows more sluggishly in the freezing cold, so it’s not impossible he could survive.

Jon’s story is pointless, if this is where it ends.  But if it does, I guess Melisandre would become the main POV in the North.

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Jon would not have much chance to survive even in hospital 2021. Bad luck and one dies stabbed once with short pocket knife, not to mention multiple thursts with daggers against torso, throat... IMO he is dying/dead or GRRM does not know what he is writting about. Only magic can make it.

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I think Jon is dead, but that his story will continue.  This will be via magic, though I'm not sure how.  I think he will warg into Ghost, but I'm not sure after that.  If his body is resurrected, then Melisandre is the obvious candidate for doing it.  My personal feeling is that Jon is linked to ice, so I'm not sure that being resurrected by fire is in the future, but I could well be wrong and that is how ice and fire are brought together.

I don't see Jon as an Aragorn-style character and certainly not a romantic link with Dany.  GRRM has prepared us well to understand that those brought back from the dead are not the same as they were when they were alive.  I see him becoming some sort of King of Winter or Night's King figure (those sentinels in the Wall and Jon's vision of the Starks rising from their tombs are possibilities - especially with no Stark at Winterfell anymore).

I'm not sure if Jon and Dany interact.  However I think it is likely, as was pointed out in a Heresy thread recently, that Arya will be the one to finish him off (compare with the badly done Night King/Arya moment form the show) and that Arya will be found in the spring frozen in the snow with Needle in her hand having finished off Jon (see possible foreshadowing when Arya and Jon talk about Arya's needle work in GoT before the scene where he presents her with Needle).

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7 hours ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

A few days ago I came across this theory and, honestly? I find it completely plausible. They are solid arguments with textual evidence. Martin has also commented on how frustrating Gandalf's resurrection was, and I think it's quite possible that he really isn't doing that on ASOAIF (resurrecting characters), especially considering the fact that you can warg inside of dead bodies.

While that theory might be a good one (there are a lot of sane people who think that, I haven't watch it) I would warn you against that channel. Utter trash. I'll rather rewatch season eight than watch those guys.

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6 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

That insists that his soul will leave his body, but will return. How do you interpret that then?

That he will warg into Ghost, and their connection will be so tight, that Jon will have problems with returning back into his own body. The attack was so sudden and violent, that his mind/consciousness could be unwilling/scared to return back into his body, because it will think that to stay in Ghost is better than to return into a body that is in severe pain and stress.

Also never before have he deliberately warged into Ghost, it was always either spontaneous occurrences that resulted into fleeting and weak connections, or while Jon was sleeping and thus his consciousness mind was not in the way of their connection. This time he intentionally warged into Ghost, remembering what Melisandre told him, to keep Ghost near him. In that moment when he was loosing consciousness, he saw Ghost's body as a safe harbour, so he went there.

This time their connection will be stronger than ever before, their souls will merge together, to the point where Jon will be unable to distinguish his own consciousness from Ghost's consciousness. And thus it will be not only super hard for Jon to disconnect from Ghost and to go back into his own body, they will be so tightly connected, Jon will be so lost in Ghost, that he won't even be aware where is he, who is he, what happened, and what is happening. He will loose his sense of self. And thus someone will have to help his soul to wake up from that state, to remind him who he is, and to nudge him back to go to his own body.

It's likely that that someone will going to be Borroq. That's why he's there. GRRM will use him to help Jon's soul to disconnect from Ghost, and to return back into his own body. Borroq is a trained and experienced skinchanger, so it's Jon's luck that someone like that is present at the Castle Black when Jon's skinchanging went wrong.

Edited by Megorova

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The one thing I can safely speculate on is that the books resurrection will be more detailed and make more sense than the show's.  While it's possible his wounds are not life-threatening, I believe Melisandre's vision makes it likely that his wounds are fatal, and Jon will "die" but warg into Ghost for a time.  Then Jon's body will somehow be resurrected, whether that is through fire magic by Mel or possible ice magic by Val/the Wall remains to be seen.  And this will fulfill Mel's vision of Jon being a man, a wolf, and then a man again.  Of course I suppose it's possible that Mel's vision isn't actually that meaningful and is just meant to convey that she's aware Jon is a warg and she's seeing his wolf dreams/warging moments.  But combined with all Mel's dire warnings about Jon being in danger, I think it far more likely Jon dies and is resurrected then him somehow surviving and nothing really changing that much.  

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There is no chance the ice cells are going to be used to preserve a living Jon - he would freeze to death very quickly. Jon himself established them as a strorage place for corpses - and that's where his corpse will be stored.

The cold will prevent decay and rot, meaning his body upon resurrection will be in better shape than Beric's and Catelyn's, but the body will have to be resurrected.

His soul not passing on should also help to make him somewhat different from Beric/Cat, but he will face other problems, possibly more severe. An extended stay in an animal costs a skinchanger pieces of his humanity, and Jon is basically completely untrained in that field. A mere day in Ghost will be horrible for him, and chances are that he will be stucks there for days and weeks.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no chance the ice cells are going to be used to preserve a living Jon - he would freeze to death very quickly. Jon himself established them as a strorage place for corpses - and that's where his corpse will be stored.

:bs:

Cregan Karstark spent many days in the ice cells and Jon decided to remove him only after seeing that the access to the cells was about to be buried by snow.

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Jon’s body will last for as long as he stays where the temperature stays low.  It means he should never go to the south.  He has to stay where the temp is freezing cold to prevent deterioration.  But let’s say Arya gets herself in trouble in the south and Jon sacrifices himself to save her.  That might be interesting.   He breaks down from the warmth but gets Arya out of trouble.  

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5 hours ago, Mithras said:

:bs:

Cregan Karstark spent many days in the ice cells and Jon decided to remove him only after seeing that the access to the cells was about to be buried by snow.

LOL. Cregan Karstark wasn't bleeding like a pig when he was put in there. Cold temperatures can slow down/prevent bleeding out quickly, but Jon would still freeze to death very quickly if he was put in such an environment with the kind of wounds he has.

Not to mention it is outlandish speculation to assume Jon isn't already dead. There is no indication that his murderers didn't continue their work after the boy fainted - which is also a strong sign that he was already mortally wounded. As healthy and trained a specimen as Jon Snow wouldn't just faint as quickly as he did if he hadn't sustained heavy injuries. The man did train in the yard for hours every day, after all.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Shouldn’t we be sure that Jon is dead in order to resurrect him? For the moment Jon is seriously injured and bleeding out. However, from Maester Aemon we know that

Quote

Or I am an old man, feverish and dying." He closed his white eyes wearily, then forced them open once again. "I should not have left the Wall. Lord Snow could not have known, but I should have seen it. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The Wall . . . but it is too late to go running back. The Stranger waits outside my door and will not be denied."

If we combine that with Melisandre’s visions about Jon

Quote

Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

With Varamyr’s

Quote

There would be a second life worthy of a king.

Along with that we have warrior witch Morna and Val who might be a druid of some sort close to him. If I had to guess I would say that in case that Jon needs to be resurrected that will not be done by Melisandre. He will warg into Ghost and then the Old Gods will revive him, to take his place as Azor Ahai.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention it is outlandish speculation to assume Jon isn't already dead.

It goes both ways. It's outlandish speculation to assume Jon is dead and not just unconscious. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that his murderers didn't continue their work after the boy fainted

Yeah, and Tormund & Co. will be busy plucking Winter Roses 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

which is also a strong sign that he was already mortally wounded

Hundreds of characters have fainted for thousands of times in Planetos. No indication of mortal wounds 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As healthy and trained a specimen as Jon Snow wouldn't just faint as quickly as he did if he hadn't sustained heavy injuries. The man did train in the yard for hours every day, after all.

Fainting isn't physical. It's mental. The shock of betrayal and more 

It just seems you are closing yourself to other options to suit your own wishes conveniently. I'm open to all possibilities, but there's a limit. I still respect your opinion, just posting points against it which are hopefully convincing. Thank you 

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38 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

It goes both ways. It's outlandish speculation to assume Jon is dead and not just unconscious.

If you go by that, you can just as well assume that Ser Kevan Lannister isn't dead, but just severely injured. I mean, Lannister guardsmen could show up and put down Varys and his birds, right? And then Qyburn could use his magics to heal him, no? Why don't we go with that as a preliminary assumption?

Bottom line is: There is a difference between the cliffhanger chapters where there is still a chance that the character might live - Theon at the end of ACoK, Arya when the axe hits her head, Davos when he dives down into the Blackwater, Brienne when she screams her word - but Jon's last chapter pretty much ends like Will's and Cressen's and Pate's and Varamyr's Prologue - and also like Kevan's Epilogue.

Death is not yet completely there, but you know there is no hope left.

If we had the slightest indication in the Jon chapter that something other like Jon being butchered was going on - if Jon were hearing or seeing of feeling anything besides being stabbed to death. Hearing Ghost's growl or seeing his shadow, if there was anything indicating that Marsh or any of the other assassins were themselves attacked by men loyal to Jon, if a red blur or something were indicating that Melisandre was showing up, etc. .... then I'd say you have a point there.

But the way it is you can just as well believe that somebody is going to come save Will, Cressen, Pate, or Kevan.

Quote

Hundreds of characters have fainted for thousands of times in Planetos. No indication of mortal wounds 

Fainting isn't physical. It's mental. The shock of betrayal and more

Jon didn't really process that he was dying, though. He doesn't yet realize that he has been betrayed or that these men are killing him. He is still trying to figure out what's going on. And yet he collapses and faints.

I mean, you realize what this youth has been through, right? He isn't an easy fainter. Marsh and company aren't Ygritte or Arya gutting him, they are just people he sort of works together. He doesn't even like them. This isn't the kind of thing that would shock him into consciousness.

And there is considerable evidence that especially the neck wound is rather severe. Jon touches his Neck and then blood wells between his fingers. That's not the kind of thing that happens when you are barely cut.

Also, the man is already losing his strength after the first cut, also indicating heavy blood loss he himself doesn't realize because he is indeed in shock. Also, he collapses to his knee after Bowen stabbed him in the belly and pain washes over him once he rips the dagger out of his smoking gut wound - there he ensures that he is going to bleed out even faster considering wrenching the dagger out is likely to open the wound even further.

And you can always point towards the abominable TV show when discussing this. We don't do this in this board over here, but I'd consider this question as settled as the question who Jon's true parents are.

Edited by Lord Varys

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Just some random thoughts here. Dance had multiple cliffhangers that Martin said will be resolved early in Winds. So maybe Jon's fate is resolved pretty quickly?

I don't like all those skulls in Mel's vision, it feels like something he will have a hand in. 

I'm expecting Jon's flaws to be 1000x worse after resurrection. Book 1 Jon - a little emo shit, but it's even worse. Obtuse Book 2 Jon can't figure out why Sam is helping Gilly, but it's even worse. Book 3 Jon is actually okay so we'll skip him. Book 5 Jon can't communicate and expects everyone to obey him, but worse. So maybe with the transformation of Jon into "A  Dickhead with A Moral Education," Dany might find this attractive.

With Martin, you gotta think of something that is completely uncomfortable to read about too. So maybe it's Dany becoming increasingly more tyrannical and unhinged, as Jon makes blind excuses and looks at her with heart eyes. However, I have no idea how a writer would make this work without Jon turning into a sycophant like Jorah. Maybe Tyrion, Jaime, and Jon could both share in their pain of loving a terrible woman. Later, Tyrion teaches Jon how to kill his girlfriend because Tyrion is an expert in that.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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53 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Just some random thoughts here. Dance had multiple cliffhangers that Martin said will be resolved early in Winds. So maybe Jon's fate is resolved pretty quickly?

I don't like all those skulls in Mel's vision, it feels like something he will have a hand in. 

I'm expecting Jon's flaws to be 1000x worse after resurrection. Book 1 Jon - a little emo shit, but it's even worse. Obtuse Book 2 Jon can't figure out why Sam is helping Gilly, but it's even worse. Book 3 Jon is actually okay so we'll skip him. Book 5 Jon can't communicate and expects everyone to obey him, but worse. So maybe with the transformation of Jon into "A  Dickhead with A Moral Education," Dany might find this attractive.

With Martin, you gotta think of something that is completely uncomfortable to read about too. So maybe it's Dany becoming increasingly more tyrannical and unhinged, as Jon makes blind excuses and looks at her with heart eyes. However, I have no idea how a writer would make this work without Jon turning into a sycophant like Jorah. Maybe Tyrion, Jaime, and Jon could both share in their pain of loving a terrible woman. Later, Tyrion teaches Jon how to kill his girlfriend because Tyrion is an expert in that.

Jon's fate will come in the first hand, along with the Meereenese plot and the Battle of Winterfell. It has to.

We don't know how will Jon come out of the situation. I seriously expect him to rethink his life and several things along with it, and decides to go for duty instead of love. I expect him to fail on this, because he has, yknow, a feeling heart, after all (Arya and Val breaking his shield he himself made to protect himself from feelings or something).

The case of Roose and Ramsay will likely be solved without him, if not by Stannis then by northern conspirators. 

If Davos manages to take back Rickon, then the opportunity of him rising to the rank of Lord or King will likely wither away. So there's when I expect his true heritage being revealed to him or something. Trough this, he likely will contact Daenerys at some point. And even if we can't imagine a way, George likely can. So he solves this "who I really am to you" situation. If it will mean more for these two than being relatives or rivals, I expect Daenerys to approach, not Jon. This is shown by Ygritte, will likely be shown by Val too, and might not even have to be shown by Daenerys if Jon finds himself comfortable with Val.

If Jon's heritage becomes a widely known thing, the two might actually be forced to marry each other for the sake of the Realm and peace or something.

I don't see the occasion necesarilly cringe, but I am curious about it too. I don't see Jon being sychopant in any case, ever.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And you can always point towards the abominable TV show when discussing this. We don't do this in this board over here, but I'd consider this question as settled as the question who Jon's true parents are.

If you are using the show like this, you should also accept that your baseless speculations such as the drooling zombie Jon that is no longer a POV are not happening at all. Post-resurrection, Jon remained the same character and him being the same character is integral to the story. His resurrection is not discussed or made a big deal about throughout the story afterwards. It is as if the resurrection never happened!

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you go by that, you can just as well assume that Ser Kevan Lannister isn't dead, but just severely injured. I mean, Lannister guardsmen could show up and put down Varys and his birds, right? And then Qyburn could use his magics to heal him, no? Why don't we go with that as a preliminary assumption?

Most of the readers incl me thought Bran and Rickon were dead in ACoK, at least on the first hurried read without anyone spoiling it. Then they were alive. Hints that were previously confusing made sense 

Same with the Hound, his axe and Arya in ASOS just as the Red Wedding was taking place. 

So Jon makes a great finish to this parallel. Actually All Starks in the eyes of the realm. 

I'm not saying that it's sure Jon is dead, Jon ain't dead just unconscious, Jon warging ghost and new body, Jon warging ghost old body resurrection by Melisandre or fire wight, ice wight, mixture of both, Night King or anything. We can only speculate. I for one think him not dead just unconscious and being dead and going to be resurrected have equal chance of happening. 1% stay dead. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the way it is you can just as well believe that somebody is going to come save Will, Cressen, Pate, or Kevan.

None of them are as important POVs as Jon. And their fates are not so ambiguous. A2D ig

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon didn't really process that he was dying, though

How can we then 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't yet realize that he has been betrayed or that these men are killing him. And yet he collapses and faints. 

No he does to an extent. He was in denial then shock 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

mean, you realize what this youth has been through, right? He isn't an easy fainter. Marsh and company aren't Ygritte or Arya gutting him, they are just people he sort of works together. He doesn't even like them. This isn't the kind of thing that would shock him into consciousness.

If he had been brainy enough to expect mutiny, the mutiny wouldn't have happened in the first place. Shock alright. Caesar again 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And there is considerable evidence that especially the neck wound is rather severe. Jon touches his Neck and then blood wells between his fingers. That's not the kind of thing that happens when you are barely cut.

As far as I interpreted it was just a nick, and I've had a couple necks just below the neck that I'd describe as blood welling up

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, the man is already losing his strength after the first cut, also indicating heavy blood loss he himself doesn't realize because he is indeed in shock. Also, he collapses to his knee after Bowen stabbed him in the belly and pain washes over him once he rips the dagger out of his smoking gut wound - there he ensures that he is going to bleed out even faster considering wrenching the dagger out is likely to open the wound even further.

Shock. Mild contradiction of your earlier statement. Blood loss, nah imo. And blood flows sluggish in that extreme cold. Pulled dagger, blood freezes, and time of treatment depends, Melisandre may cauterize the wound. We don't know much. Way too many probabilities. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And you can always point towards the abominable TV show when discussing this. We don't do this in this board over here, but I'd consider this question as settled as the question who Jon's true parents are.

I don't consider so 

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